Subject: SMML17/09/98VOL305 Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:30:08 +1000 (EST) shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Prinz Eugen Veterans 2: Bismarck Turret Colors 3: Re: Floater Net Storage Bins 4: Re: Storage bins 5: Hood Model Kits:Need More Inputs- 6: Re: Conversion Kit Suggestions 7: Essex hangar - thank you 8: Re: IJN carrier details/Green color? 9: Enterpise flight deck 10: Floater Baskets 11: Floater Nets 12: Decals 13: US Carrier photos 14: conversion ideas 15: Nautical Quote 16: Re: Carpathia Sinking 17: Re: CLG Conversion 18: Titanic? 19: Re: HMS Exeter 20: Re: HMS Exeter -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: Battle of the River Plate 2: HMS Exeter model 3: New 1/700 Aircraft -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: DKrakow105@aol.com Subject: Prinz Eugen Veterans Greetings I attended the 1998 Prinz Eugen veterans reunion in Krov, Germany, a small scenic town on the Mosel River. Approximately 200 former crewmen showed up with their wives. Grumpy reminiscing about a lost war? No! This was a lively, cheerful gathering of old friends accompanied by a lot of white wine and a band playing traditional German oom-pa-pa music. It is one thing to know a ship from black and white photos, and quite another to know it through the crew. Since the mood was quite good and friendly, I spoke with many vets. The body of knowledge available at a veterans reunion is extraordinary. Everyone was helpful and if somebody didn't have an answer to a question, they invariably knew somebody who did: "go ask Schmidt over there, he was an artillery mechanic", and so on. The event was attended by two other modelbuilders. One of them, like me, was collecting data for a Prinz Eugen model. However, his model is in massive 1:50 scale! He has 10 years of work invested in the project and is still only half finished. He brought with a finished quad 2cm Flak an anchor and a propellor. All parts were machined or etched brass and perfect in every detail. The completed model will be beyond belief or description. In any case, I would highly recommend anyone with a serious interest in a particular ship, or class of ships, to attend a veterans' reunion. On the one hand you will gain access, and preserve, information that is not yet available in books, and on the other you will make a veteran happy that someone still gives a damn. David Krakow -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: DKrakow105@aol.com Subject: Bismarck Turret Colors There has been much debate over the color of the Bismarck's turret tops during her finest hour, "Operation Rheinubung". Modellers and artists have been painting the main and/or secodary turret tops yellow, allegedly an air-recognition measure. I have been skeptical of this, although the theory originated from one radio transmission from a British observation aircraft which noted "Bismarck's turret roofs and gun shields painted bright yellow". I submit that the yellow turret top theory is incorrect. I decided to lay the issue to rest by surveying Prinz Eugen veterans who participated in "Rheinubung" and saw the Bismarck. I surveyed approximately 15 eyewitnesses at the 1998 Prinz Eugen Veterans Reunion in Krov Germany. All of them recalled seeing the Bismarck up close, and all were of sound mind and could recall various details about the operation. About half of them were AA gunners and rangefinder operators who were in a particularly good, elevated position to observe the Bismarck during the course of the operation. I even spoke at length to a Bismarck survivor, Paul Hillen. As an attorney, I know something about examining witnesses. At first I avoided leading questions, so I asked about about air recognition colors and insignia on the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen. All of them recalled the bow and stern swastikas. Some recalled painting them over. One recalled the Prinz Eugen's very temporary red turret tops, a few others remembered that the Prinz Eugen changed turret colors at some point. None of them mentioned yellow turret tops on the Bismarck. I then asked the leading question whether Bismarck ever had yellow turret tops. Unanimous answer: "No. They were grey". Furthermore, at the reunion, I was very generously presented with a set of original photographs taken aboard the Prinz Eugen. These photos are in sharper focus and clearer than the published photos. Several show the Bismarck, one in particular is a close-up of the Bismarck alongside as the Prinz changed position to lead ship. There is nothing to indicate that the color of the oblique sides of the turrets is any different from the turret sides or the ship's superstructure. The oblique turret sides are lighter, as are the searchlight shield, range finder covers, etc. This is the normal reflection of light from above. Logically, there was no reason to paint the turrets bright yellow. The ship was out of range of LW aircraft. Further, if the crew had taken the measure of overpainting the red field of the bow and stern swastikas with grey camoflage color, then why paint the turret tops bright yellow? How to explain the "bright yellow turret tops and gun shields" transmission? Recall that the Bismarck was not under constant observation, rather that it was seen from high altitude, through holes in the clouds. Sunlight reflecting off the smooth flat surfaces probably appeared to the observer as a bright yellow color. Indeed, I noted on my recent flight to New York City that the slate grey rooftops of Queens reflecting in the sun appeared momentarily to be a bright yellow color. Until someone can produce better evidence, such as a few swordfish pilots who claim otherwise, I urge everyone to drop the yellow turret top theory. The color may look pretty, but it is inaccurate. David Krakow -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Floater Net Storage Bins >> I sure hate to sound this ignorant but after a 20 year career in the Navy, I cannot remember, even once, anyone referring to 'floater baskets' so I have to ask... what are they? << Floater net storage bins were used on virtually every warship during WW2. They are U shaped bins (like three or four 50 gal drums put together and sliced from side to side leaving half. They were basket itself made of thin strips of wood or metal to allow for drainage of sea water. These bins were placed in different areas of the ship. Some ships had many, while some ships carried none. The bins, I assume were created for smaller vessels that lacked sufficient storage for the nets. Sometimes they were located on the stacks (rear stack on the Fletcher), the side and top of the capital guns on battleships, the bulkheads or just about anywhere they could cram them. The floater net was just that. A large net with cork floaters attached to make the net float in the water. These nets were used to rescue large numbers of sailors in the water. When a ship was sunk for example. The huge floating net meant for those in the water to merely grab the net and wait to be pulled in rather than the ship picking up each sailor seperately. They had to have someplace to put these nets, so the floater net storage bin was born. If you look for them they are easily seen in many of the photos I have seen. If I am wrong, someone please let me know. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Storage bins >> Basically a lifesaving floatation device, the "nets" were designed to float out of their baskets through the process of their parent ship sinking from under them. << Very interesting. I wondered why they were located in such high and out of the way places with no access ladders. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: AllenFW2@aol.com Subject: Hood Model Kits:Need More Inputs- Thanks for the inputs I've received so far. I'm still trying to find out a bit more though. Does anyone have any information (kit quality, etc.) or photos (assembled/unassembled, etc.) of the following HMS Hood kits: Airfix 1/600 Hood (need photos only) Figurehead 1/6000 Hood GHQ 1/2400 Hood Heller 1/400 Hood (need photos only) Iron Shipwrights 1/350 Hood Italieri 1/720 Hood (need photos only) Lindbergh Hood (need some background info on this one..scale, date isssued, etc.) Tamiya 1/700 -Well covered...need no inputs White Ensign Models 1/350 Hood- Well covered..need no inputs Am I missing anything (I know that there are also card models. I'm assembling that list now) This info will go into a comprehensive listing of Hood models, accessories, etc. on the NavShips History Ring Site "With the Winds Favorable...An Homage to HMS Hood." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Doc Data Subject: Re: Conversion Kit Suggestions If your converting, how about a FRAM conversion for Tom's and/or BWN's Sumner and Gearing DD models? For that matter, given the hulls are so close, how about a conversion of the Tamiya Fletcher DD into a Sumner FRAM? Basically, give me a Sumner FRAM.... please! I spent 8 years on these ships and I'd love to model one. Doc Data -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: KelDQ@aol.com Subject: Essex hangar - thank you Just wanted to thank everybody who replied to my question. Looks like I will go with white on the walls and ceiling, and deck blue for the floor. And special thanks to Michael Czibovic - I never would have known about painting the underside of the overhangs white. Kelly Quirk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: JGordon262@aol.com Subject: Re: IJN carrier details/Green color? Ken wrote: >> Just got a copy of the HA 1/700 'Kaga'... It concerns a detail on the large spars that support the forward part of the flight deck over the forecastle: at the top there seems to be a lattice work support splaying out to the underside of the flight deck, similar in configuration to a square-riggers futtock shrouds. If it is accurate, is there a PE set which includes them? << I can't vouch for the art accuracy, but detailing these supports would sure look good! All these IJN carrier kits feature overscale, poorly molded deck butresses that require, at the least, drilling out( which is difficult in itself due to the angle of the drill to the hull sides). I think PE parts would actually be too thin for these side supports, but would be right on for the smaller splayed out supports above the bow. Also, even if you had PE parts, consider that cutting off the molded-on supports will leave a very rough area, difficult to clean up. It's a challenge, no doubt about it. A question of my own: I'd like some info on the green paint scheme seen on the box art of these IJN carriers (Unryo, Junyo). I've yet to see a modeler build one up in a green scheme, and I've read nothing about this color in my references, yet there it is on the box. Can someone fill me in please? Thanks, JG -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Doc Data Subject: Enterpise flight deck I have found some color web images of the CVA(N)-65 in her early days and the flight deck appears to be a fairly light greyish brown all over except the elevator and the aircraft landing zone (which appears either black or a very dark gray). Now, I know flight decsk have 2 types of non-skid applied (abrasive and non-abrasive)and I know they tend to weather and thus fade in color differently but this appears too different to be a weathering issue. Was there a different coloring arrangement for CV flight decks in the early 60's? Doc Data -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: DaveRiley1@aol.com Subject: Floater Baskets I too spent a bit of time in the Navy (62-86) and never saw a floater basket. They were a wartime addition. Any good ship reference book with wartime photos will show the baskets holding the floater nets all over the place. Dave Riley Portsmouth, RI -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: DaveRiley1@aol.com Subject: Floater Nets Looking at the Doc Data comment again, I realize I didn't answer the mail. While I thought I had seen a better answer in an earlier volume, the nets were intended to float when a ship sank and would give the crew something to hang on to until help arrived. Basically they were a hemp net with large (6 to 12 inches I would guess) cork cylinders attached for floatation. Dave Riley Portsmouth, RI -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Burl Burlingame / Pacific Monograph Subject: Decals You can also use decals xeroxed or laser-printed on clear or white decal paper as masks. Trim them, put them on, paint, then pull them off with a sticky piece of tape, then wipe the mopdel with water to remove any remaining glue. Burl Burlingame Pacific Monograph, 1124 Kahili Street, Kailua HI 96734 A historical interpretation company. Visit our web site at http://www.PacificHistory.com/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Torgeson Roger A Subject: US Carrier photos If you have an interest in US bird farms (carriers) try this site out. http://www.cityscope.net/~pry/Archives/cvphoto.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Torgeson Roger A Subject: conversion ideas Rusty, When I mentioned a conversion for the Tamiya New Jersey I should have said the modern version so a Iowa or Gulf War Wisconsin, Missouri could be modeled. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Nautical Quote Please don't gang up on me for sharing this quotation with the group! My active duty counterparts enjoyed it: "No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... A man in jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company." Samuel Johnson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Re: Carpathia Sinking Mark wrote: >> The Carpathia was sunk during WWI, torpedoed by a U-Boat I believe. I'm sure you can get further particulars from someone on this list, the amount of knowledge contained here is truly amazing. << Absolutely. When the film "Titanic" opened in North America last December, there was renewed interest in ship sinkings in general and the Titanic/Carpathia story in particular. Some newsgroup (sci.military.naval?) had a link to a list of all the White Star Line ships lost both by accident or in war. Truly astonishing numbers for just one company. Can't imagine the fear a merchant sailor must have had, constantly thinking his ship could shortly be in the sights of a U-boat (in the case of both world wars). Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Re: CLG Conversion Paul wrote: >> Retro Converting Renwall/Revell 1/600 Pasadena or Springfield CGLs to original CL configuration. That is a full W.W.II Cleveland Class gun cruiser. I have the 1/700 WL early Cleveland and the Lindberg USS Columbia CL-56. Now that I finally got my hands on these kits, would like to try this modification and would appreciate any help. << I'm sort of doing the opposite. Want an accurate CLG model and have the Lindberg 1/600 Manchester (a badly regarded kit, of course), the Revell 1/500 Springfield, and a stock Skywave 1/700 WW2 Cleveland/Miami. Am collecting reference material and will be happy to share with SMML. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "cat007" Subject: Titanic? is anyone building 1/350 titanic?? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Kristoffer.Lindh@alcatel.fr Subject: Re: HMS Exeter I found the old box without too much difficulty. The quotes have been translated from old Humbrol authentics to their present range. The colours are: a. Light grey 87 b. Black 33 c. Dark Green 30 d. Dark slate grey 102 e. Bleached Teak No equivalent f. Blue 25 g. White 34 Good luck, Kristoffer Lindh -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Shane & Lorna Jenkins Subject: Re: HMS Exeter >> Can somebody who has the Matchbox Exeter kit (in English!) please tell me the colours that correspond to these letters? << Hi John, If you go to ModellerAl's site at: http://members.aol.com/modeleral/index.html you'll find my index of ship related magazine articles which has an entry for the Matchbox HMS Exeter in Scale Models International Nov 1977, pp 565(I decided not to be lazy & look it up). Now for the paint schemes: A)Steel grey 87 B)Matt black 33 C)Dark green 30 D)Light olive 86 E)Oak 71 F)Blue 25 G)Matt white 34 The numbers refer to Humbrol paints. As to how accurate they are, ask the group, I'm sure they'll have any corrections if needed :-). All the best. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: HGYL@aol.com Subject: Re: Battle of the River Plate I am intrigued to note that John Maine is building Exeter as part of a Battle of the River Plate project. I cannot answer his queries but it is a subject that interests me. Does anyone know where I can buy a copy of the film Battle of the River Plate in NTSC format at a reasonable price? One distributor of films and videos offered it to me at $70 which is in my opinion way over the top. Any help appreciated. Harold Lincoln -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "FERNANDO, YOHAN" Subject: HMS Exeter model Hello everybody, Someone had questions about painting their newly acquired Matchbox WWII HMS Exeter. While I unfortunately don't have the answers for that person, I would like to know where I could find this kit. I've looked everywhere and not finding it was under the assumption that it was out of production. Does anyone know where I can get this kit (with or without English instructions)? How about other Matchbox 1/700 kits that I've never been able to find (HMS Kelly and HMS Ariadne)? Thanks. Yohan Fernando -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: New 1/700 Aircraft Hi there SMMLies, Many thanks to all who have participated in our previous surveys. We need your help yet again. We are coming close to having the entire 1/700 Scale AIRSTRIKE 700 subjects up in production... all 122 of them! Dave and I are now compiling requests for a further 100 subjects that YOU would like to see... whether from a wargamer's perspective (Thanks to Mike Cooper for much inspiration in this dept.) or whether you are a Cruiser, Carrier, Battleship, or diorama builder, we are looking to extend this range to include more Italian, German, US, British.... and also a range of Japanese aircraft. Bombers, fighters, Early Warning, Float and Seaplanes.... We will also consider the most popular Russian and French subjects..... in fact, if there are 10 requests for any subject (One request equals one bag of aircraft) we WILL do it! This request obviously also applies to the likes of Bill Gruner of Pacific Front Hobbies (who wasn't one of the strange men in our bedroom by the way) and to all the other traders out there... Cheers and Yes, those 1/700 Twin Oerlikons and 1/700 IJN AA Weapons sets finally materialised, along with MTB and Vosper brass... we will be shipping these out in the next day or 2. Oh yes, I nearly forgot.... could you reply directly to me, Caroline (to save clogging up the list) at mailto:xdt22@dial.pipex.com Thanks! TTFN Caroline Carter SMMLlie old WEMblie and proud of it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume