Subject: SMML22/10/98VOL340 Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 22:58:31 +1000 (EST) shipmodels@wr.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: SMML Format 2: Airfix kits 3: Physicists 4: Re: The Unsubscriber 5: Improvements & Drawing the Line 6: Unsubscribing SMML members 7: Making It Better - Where Do W Draw The Line? 8: Re: What's appropriate for the list? 9: (CVA(N)-65) 10: HMAS Sydney/Occupations 11: Re: where do we draw the line? 12: Graf Spee colors 13: Re: Making it better 14: Re: Making it better - where do we draw the line? 15: SMML Changes 16: HMS RODNEY 17: Re: Plans 18: SMML Content 19: Fletcher detail painting 20: Re: HMAS Sydney, Unsubscriber, Booksearch 21: New books by Chapman 22: Re: Making it better - where do we draw the line? 23: Drawing lines 24: HMAS Sydney 25: Re:making it better/drawing line 26: Making it better - where do we draw the line? 27: Re: SMML improvements 28: Re: Book: Anatomy of the Ship - Yamato 29: Re: Making it better - where do we draw the line? 30: Fwd: IJN Colors 31: Don't banish me Bill... 32: Re: Ticnderoga class site 33: Re: Appropriate posts 34: Re: Where do we draw the line 35: Re: SYDNEY loss - supplemental 36: Re: Format 37: SMML and Occupations 38: Are there any other physicists out there? 39: Re: Where do we draw the line? Greg's question. 40: BS, AOL & Greg's question. 41: Re: Enterprise Air Group 42: Re: Making it better 43: HMAS Sydney 44: GRAF SPEE 45: Re: Graf Spee Colors -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Improvements 2: Naval Base Sale 3: U.K. IPMS Nationals 4: Ebay yamato sale -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Foeth" Subject: Re: SMML Format I think it would be good if everyone would remove the characters in front of each sentence of the previous messages from their replies, which often end up in the middle of a sentence, and put the previous message in quotes. For example, take volume SMML11/10/98Vol329, "message OOPS" (by our listmaster, I'm afraid), the character > appears everywere. In the message "Re; Lawyers (and other careers)", the previous message is clearly marked out. My first messages were sent in HTML format, which the SMML does not like, and garbles up. If messages are send in TEXT-format, they appear "as-is". This *could* solve the separator line problem. Mine wouldn't even appear in HTML format. Also, I would prefer messages on the Noticeboard at the start of each volume, as I frequently forget to read them. Just my special fault, I know. Is there any possibilty that a picture can be added in the SMML, or in a seperate issue? Sometimes a single picture can tell more than a lot of words. This feature should not be allowed for subscribers to show their models, just to supplement the subscibers articles/questions/stories etc Evert-Jan Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Noel Ray Subject: Airfix kits >> First, Airfix is never going to re-release a 1/600 ship kit, let alone entertain any notion about new tooling and then I hear otherwise and they have two new re-releases to be announced, one of which sounds like the Hood (Amen!). I only hope that the other is the Queen Elizabeth. << Don't forget that Airfix re-released the 1:600 "Canberra" this summer (1998)! Noel Ray -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Kevin Wenker Subject: Physicists >> Are there, dare I say it, any physicists out there in SMML land? << >> Does astrophysics count? I don't currently work in this field, but have a degree in it. I currently spend the time I am not building models managing corporate databases...where's the connection? << Got my degree in physics also (nuclear). I now manage all the computers for a major corporation. Same connection? At least I can explain my nautical interests: son is at Annapolis (last year) - but he going to be a Marine officer. Dang, no Tiger Cruises. Kevin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "James M. Pasquill, II" Subject: Re: The Unsubscriber Greg: >> I'm not interested in all this sea lawyer stuff, and the ethicality of copying parts. Please remove me from you list. Thanks for everything. << >> This is very disheartening for me - I don't like to see anybody unsubscribe, but it makes me wonder about where do we draw the line? << Greg, The fellow above is obviously not interested in anything or he would have politely ignored the largely informative postings on parts pirating, taken pleasure in the comradery that was building among some of the lawyer/modelers on the list, and enjoyed all the other posts that were completely model related. Some people take themselves so seriously that they can't allow anyone else to have fun which is what the lawyer/engineer thread is all about, or they can't stand it when you have anything other than strictly model related threads. God fordid some of us discuss the business side of the modeling world by discussing parts pirating! Balance is the key. So far I think the you and the list members have kept things balanced well. I wouldn't want to see SMML become primarily "Hey, I'm a lawyer too," posts. When and if that happens you'll get more than one complaint and that will be the end of it. I also would not want the list to become just another reference tool like a paint chip list. I want to learn from other modelers and enjoy their company. Relax, you're doing a great job. Jim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "John Tennier" Subject: Improvements & Drawing the Line Hello again: Some comments on the correspondence so far: 1. Text wrapping If there is an agreed standard, please include it in a "welcome" passage. For those real computer types, if they have suggestions for the more common e-mail packages to set them up, that would make those who are not as computer literate more likely to do help make everyone's life easier. I know when I switched e-mail software, I got some rather nasty responses to some posts until I sorted out the defaults! 2. E-mail of pictures as attachments Can't agree to this, mostly because I travel a great deal. I often have to hook up at 2400 baud and a pix file can take 10 minutes or more to download at long distance rates. I'm all for making them available, try a header like "Free Photos", and send them on a request basis. I don't think the list is that big......yet. 3. Mr McCormick's Decision I too am disheartened by the decision of Mr McCormick. But, then again, the easy solution is to do what I do, sunscribe in DIGEST format. I am not interested in the Yamato and consider the copying stuff to have gotten a bit mundane, but then again, I am not going to stop those who want to pursue it. The DIGEST format makes that very, very easy. Highly recommended. Again, Greg, you're doing a GREAT job. Cheers John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Foeth" Subject: Unsubscribing SMML members I agree that the SMML should not deviate too much from it's purpose: an exchange of information on ships and modeling from one modeler to another, but I do not think that when modelers want to know a little more about fellow modelers, that boundary is violated. The SMML is in my opinion on ships, modeling and modelers. This includes "sea lawyer stuff" and "ethicality of copying parts", although I do not find it particularly interesting. But I am also not particularly interested in the Flower-class corvettes, and I do not concider that a reason to unsubscribe. As long as everything is related to ships, modelers and modeling, I think it should be allowed, even if that may be slightly boring to other people. The person who just unsubscribed made a hasty decission. I think the SMML is great, even with all the lawyers! Evert-Jan Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Kurt Van Dahm Subject: Making It Better - Where Do W Draw The Line? Greg: Just keep things the way you have been doing them, no need to change. I have enjoyed learning a little bit about the others on the list in addition to their interest in modeling ships. I also enjoy the Y------ stuff as I am getting set to build the Tamiya 1/350 Musashi. Big change from my usual tug boats! For the record I am a retired Chief of Fire Prevention for a suburban Chicago FD. Kurt Van Dahm Westmont, IL USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: What's appropriate for the list? Greg: My short answer: whatever you deem appropriate--it's YOUR list! I understand your dismay at someone getting disgruntled and unsubscribing, but it happens. I've been a member of quite a number of lists for quite a while now, and SMML-L is one of the best. The members have proved there's room for differences of opinion without starting flame wars, and that they have a sense of humor. If that latter takes up a bit of bandwidth, so be it; a bit of humor is kind of nice in the day-to-day of this sorry old world. As for the posting of occupations, I for one enjoy knowing a bit more about those with whom I'm conversing and sharing information; keep it up. In short, Greg, don't change anything about the way you run the list; if we lose a few, the rest of us will just have to recruit replacements. :^) When I'm enjoying my morning coffee and checking e-mail, I always save SMML for last, because it's the best thing I receive every day. John Snyder Snyder& Short Enterprises -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: (CVA(N)-65) Since that was how the Big E was designated back in '68.... John, unfortunately '68 was the one year we weren't deployed with ENTERPRISE, being tucked snugly into a drydock at Mare Island for our first refueling. However, I do have a number of photos and slides squirreled away from our 1966-7 and 1969 deployments with her, including some of her a/c on deck and in the air (and including an all-black A-3 ECM bird). Let me know if these would be of use to you. I have a slide/negative scanner, so I can send you files. Just don't be in too much of a hurry.... :^) John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises USS BAINBRIDGE (DLG(N)-25) Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Jeffrey Roberts" Subject: HMAS Sydney/Occupations Hello. All of this talk of HMAS Sydney prompts me to ask if there has ever been a kit of either Sydney or her sisters Perth and Hobart. I'm very interested in this class and would love to build a model of one of them... On another subject, Greg asks- >> Today we have a few posts from people stating there occupations - should I withhold those because they are not relevant? Or post them because there are some of us on the list who are actually interested? << While sometimes threads do go on, if I come across a thread that doesn't interest me, I just hit the scroll bar and move on. For the most part the threads and information contained herein are both entertaining and informative. As far as people stating their occupations, frankly I think it IS interesting. It helps put a face on people whose posts I read and enjoy on a daily or weekly basis and creates a greater feeling of community. IMHO that makes SMML all the more enjoyable! For the record, after studying history and classical language (Greek and Latin) in college, I spent a dozen years as a stock broker. Two years ago I decided to follow my dreams and now I am currently working for myself developing projects in the entertainment industry (movies, videogames, software)... Best wishes Jeffrey Roberts North Hollywood California -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "FERNANDO, YOHAN" Subject: Re: where do we draw the line? I also think it's disheartening that someone would want to be removed from the list because of the recent 'off topic' threads. While one of the things that I think is great about SMML is how on-topic it generally remains, it's nornal that other topics will seep into the discussions occasionally. Most people will admit (grudgingly perhaps :) ) that there is more to their lives than models. When you look at the amount of off-topic posts, though, the number in comparison to strictly model-related posts is very low- especially compared to other newsgroups. I don't see SMML turning into a soapbox for totally unrelated topics and a few off-topic posts should not discourage people. Posts about personal information (ie profession, education etc) make the list more personal and make posters more than just a name and email address. I also get the feeling that everyone here is responsible and has enough good sense to know when a thread gets too off-topic or goes too far to end it. When everyone is a good neighbor then there should be no need for policing. Perhaps some of the suggested improvements to the SMML format will make it easier for people to jump to the relevent posts skipping anything that is not interesting to them. I hope the list will retain its good-natured , open attitude and anyone dropping out is just missing out on the best ship modelling resource available to him or her. Keep up the great work Greg and all other SMML members! Yohan Fernando -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "FERNANDO, YOHAN" Subject: Graf Spee colors I built the 1/700 Fujimi Graf Spee last year and loosely followed the colors suggested on the kit instructions. My Japanese is basic, but was enough to read the colors on the painting guide to be different shades of grey. No mention of green. I painted my Graf Spee with Tamiya paints using Dark Sea Grey as the base color and the next darker shade of grey (can't remember the name right now) for the upperworks' camo and horizontal steel decks. Wooden decks were done in Deck Tan and white was used for the false bow wave. I was very pleased with the result. I am not a member of the color police so my color representation might be 'off', but I think my choice of colors made an impressive looking Panzerschiff nonetheless. Yohan Fernando -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Growlrr@aol.com Subject: Re: Making it better Hi Greg I think I speak for a lot of us when I say that you answered your own question - "I have made hundreds of friends here" and so now you lose one. It is one of those "you can't please all of the people all of the time situations." Take heart - the odds are still greatly in your favor.... The "lawyer" thread didn't send chills up my spine either, but know what? I learned that I could skip over those if I wanted to and the world didn't come to an end and I still was part of a great mailing list. Shame he couldn't come to the same realization. As of today Mer. McCormick has missed information on the Yamato, NJ/MO kit compatibility, the Sydney and Graf Spee from informed enthusiasts. Seems a high price to pay for not skipping over a few "unnecessary" or "irrelevant" postings, doesn't it? Let the members discuss what interests them.....If a subject didn't interest us, there wouldn't be any postings on the subject and it would die... Many Thanks Glenn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: John Philip Downing Subject: Re: Making it better - where do we draw the line? >> As listmaster I guess I am very loose with moderation, most likely because its very rare I have to intervene. >> wonder about where do we draw the line? What is relevant? - What Is Not? Another thread which seems to have taken off is the "Are there any lawyers here?" thread. Today we have a few posts from people stating there occupations - should I withhold those because they are not relevant? Or post them because there are some of us on the list who are actually interested? << I think the "sea lawyer" thread was useful at the beginning, but it soon became boring with everyone putting in their opinions on wether it was ethical (as opposed to lawyer stating whether it was legal). But on the whole OK. But I don't think that finding out (one at a time) what everyone's job is is useful. Asking if anyone is a physicist (for example) because he needs help with a technical problem is OK, but on general terms NO. In these case the listmaster should print the original message, with a caveat that follow ups be directed to EMail. If there is a good response, the original poster would be allowed a summary. Another approach would be to have an "off-topic" queue, and only allow a few such posts per day. Good luck... John Downing -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Graham Walker" Subject: SMML Changes Also Listmaster keep up the great job, changes well I for one think that it looks ok as it is, ok maybe all this lawer stuff is going on to long maybe you could limit the amount of time to a thread to around one week, just a thought. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Graham Walker" Subject: HMS RODNEY Hi all a few weeks ago I was just browsing the web and found a site of HMS Rodney, and book marked it. Only a few days latter to delet it by accident. Can any body send me the address please. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Graham Walker" Subject: Re: Plans I have plans for HMS Lion, HMS Queen Mary and HMS Invincable all WW1, -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Douglas Martin" Subject: SMML Content Greg: I've no problem with the content or layout of this list, and wont be 'un-subscribing' if things get a wee bit heated, or marginally 'off-topic' - I think I might even stray a bit myself. If anyone wants to say what their occupations are, fine, but keep it brief, my hackles do rise a bit when some posts become over critical of others opinions/actions etc. I delete parts of messages I dont require, but as I'm using MS etc, editing digest marginally actually increases the 'k' size, unless I'm doing a severe pruning. Have kept all the digests since I joined, goodness knows how I'm going to find specific articles of interest in all those issues. Douglas (who refuses to reveal his occupation or other nefarious web activities.......) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Foeth" Subject: Fletcher detail painting All right, what color should I paint the live-belts and the hoses of the fire-fighting equipment on a meassure 21 Fletcher? Evert-Jan Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: HMAS Sydney, Unsubscriber, Booksearch The Australian War Memorial does have the photograph of HMAS Sydney in camouflage that is in Morris' cruiser book, and it's negative no. 007888. There's another really nice view of the Sydney in Muggenthaler's book on German raiders (can't recall the exact title), but it's credited to the RAN and the AWM doesn't seem to have it. The story of the Sydney is a fascinating one, but don't believe everything you read; the story been the object of at least one hoax, as pointed out in a book about the Sydney by Barbara Winter (I can't remember the entire English title and the German title is "Duel vor Australien"). Montgomery's book "Who Sank the Sydney?" is very interesting and throws around a lot of theories, but, if it reaches a conclusion about what happened, I missed it. It also makes too much of a supposed defect in the protection for Sydney's fire control arrangements; at point blank range and at the mercy of 5.9" guns and a 37mm AT gun, a better-armored ship (other than a capital ship) would have fared no better. I would love to find Tom Frame's book on the Sydney; if anyone finds an extra one lying around somewhere, I'd appreciate your letting me know. Speaking of finding books, I personally have had no luck at all with Lodowick Adams; I think it's better to keep checking with dealers who specialize in naval and military books. I don't know if the discussion about the fate of the Sydney is strictly topical to SMML, but I enjoy it, just as I enjoy finding out what occupations our subscribers have. I think it's unfortunate that one subscriber who wasn't into some of the recent topics decided to unsubcribe, but I hope Greg won't let it get him down; he's doing a great job, and "You can't please everybody." If, however, Greg ever wants to step in and say, "That's about enough of that topic" or "That's digressing a bit too much from shipmodeling," I'd have no problem with that. Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21: From: Erwin Van Deynze Subject: New books by Chapman I've just received the latest catalogue from Chatham Publishing. Boy , do they have some goodies !!! New are amongst others : The Bismarck Chase : New Light on a Famous Engagement, It shines som new light on her battle with the Hood, and her final sinking. 20 £ Shadows on the Horizon : The battle of Convoy HX-233 20 £ The Naval War in the Mediterranean 1940-1943 25 £ With all these new publications, MacOS 8.5, The DS9 technical Manual, the new Babylon 5 movies and several local moddeling conventions coming up, I do need a couple extra jobs, it seems !!! Greetings from Erwin (who can't make a choice) Van Deynze -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22: From: Erwin Van Deynze Subject: Re: Making it better - where do we draw the line? Hi, Greg I do think you do a wonderful job as listmaster, I have to agree that some of these mails are quite off-topic. On the other hand, they are quite informative, and relevant or not, I think you handle them very well. And if they come to tedious for me, I simply don't read them, and go on with the next posting. I guess it is more up to us, the posters, to be a little more restrictive in what we post. After all, we're only givng you extra work with all our off-topic postings. What concerns the current occupation thread, I don't mind, they're pretty short, and some are quite humorous, so they lighten and break the list a little, what makes the list even more readable. Concerning Jim's request, I'm sorry too, but he surely will miss a lot in the future. I do have to think on an expression we have here : 'Het kind met het badwater weggooien' freely translated as : 'throwing the child away with the bathwater' Concerning the format, I'm happy with it as it is, if it can be better, that's the better, but it's certainly not a must. Erwin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23: From: Mark Kwasnycia Subject: Drawing lines Greg, It's certainly sad to see someone go, but a list as large as yours is bound to have it happen occasionally. I skipped most of the copying threads, as I found it dull, but I wouldn't for a moment consider that the topic shouldn't be covered - as it's something that has very much to do with our chosen hobby. And besides, if it's that distressing, simply skip the post. I don't see anybody looking over my shoulder to ensure I've read every line ! As for the "this is what I do for a living" posts: No, it's not directly related, but it is a way of getting to know each other... and a gauge on our powers of observation: I was surprised to see how many of the regulars I'd "pegged" to be lawyers actually were! But, as most of our "potentially bothersome" threads go, the end result is, if you don't want to read it, don't. Just my 2 cents from the silent recesses of Ottawa... Mark Kwasnycia -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24: From: jmaine@golden.net Subject: HMAS Sydney Hi all, The book on the sinking of the HMAS Sydney that one or two others have already mentioned is Michael Montgomery's "Who Sank the Sydney?" (Cassell, 1981; revised ed. Camelot Press, 1983). Montgomery's father was Lt. Cdr. C.A.C. Montgomery, navigating officer aboard the Sydney when she was lost in action with the Kormoran on Nov. 19, 1941. According to Montgomery's reconstruction of events, the Sydney caught the Kormoran while the latter was at a standstill preparing to sow mines along a major shipping route off Australia's SE coast. The Kormoran used her smoke-making apparatus to simulate a fire on board (i.e. as if she were an innocent merchantment who'd just been attacked by a German raider). The Kormoran also sent a fake SOS radio signal to suggest that another merchant ship a short distance away was signalling that she too was also being attacked by a raider. All the while the Kormoran continued to fly the neutral colours of a Norwegian ship that she resembled very closely. Capt. Burnett of the Sydney was thus lured into thinking that he was dealing with the victim of the raider, not the raider herself. Kormoran continued to send distress signals and Sydney approached to within about 1,200 yards of her (having ordered the Kormoran to heave to and prepare to receive a boarding party). At this point Sydney was practically stationary in the water, her guns trained fore and aft, and many of the crew lining the rails to "gawk" at the German ship. A boat from the Sydney was lowered (or about to be lowered, this is unclear) and it was at this moment that Kormoran opened fire. Again according to Montgomery's reconstruction, Kormoran most likely first fired a torpedo from her single, underwater tube (while still flying the Norwegian flag, according to Montgomery). This hit the Sydney forward and at the moment of impact the raider's 3.7cm flak gun was quickly brought into play and by all accounts (of Kormoran survivors) this weapon did tremendous damage, shredding the Sydney's bridge in particular and possibly killing or wounding all the command personnel and many others therein. As a result, throughout the action the Sydney's guns were fought under local control only, a significant disadvantage. Finally, the raider's main armament of 5.9" guns was unmasked and brought to bear (a process that took two or three minutes). The first salvo fell short but thereafter the 5.9" shells began smashing into the hapless Sydney as well. At this point the Sydney had begun to reply, particularly with the aft 6" turrets, and the Kormoran was also soon severely damaged and on fire. Thereafter Montgomery suggests a number of possible scenarios, based on varying kinds of evidence: 1) the Kormoran then pumped two more torpedoes into the Sydney from her deck tubes, whereupon the latter blew up and sank 2) the Kormoran signalled surrender, raised the white flag and men began abandoning the firecely burning ship, and then, when the Sydney had ceased firing, the raider's captain gave the order to fire the two torpedoes 3) the Kormoran was in no condition to finish the Sydney but the former was possibly in company with a Japanese I - class submarine. The latter was taking up its station in Australian waters as part of the general preparations for the Pearl Harbour strike that opened Japan's campaign in the Pacific. The Japanese submarine torpedoed the Sydney in accordance with Yamamoto's orders that any Allied naval unit which posed a security threat to Japan's secret war plans was to be destroyed. Montgomery seems to favour the last of the three possibilities. Either way, he seems to think it fairly likely that the Germans and/or Japanese disposed of (i.e. machine-gunned) any Sydney survivors they could find in the water. This was done to get rid of any witnesses to (a) the Germans' breach of international law by firing on the Sydney while flying a neutral flag (making them culpable for war crimes) and (b) to cover up the clandestine movements of the Japanese in Australian waters. Mongomery seems to think that this explains that out of a complement of 645 officers and men there was not a single survivor from the Sydney. He goes on to suggest related theories of a cover-up by both the Australian Navy (because of its incompetence in searching for Sydney survivors in particular) and others higher up (right up to Churchill and Roosevelt in fact, who may have known about Japanese moves but didn't want that knowledge to get out to the Japanese). That's about it. The book is a superb read, very engrossing and very moving too. John Maine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25: From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: making it better/drawing line Greg, you are doing a fantastic job and providing a service of inestimable value; don't be disheartened by one jerk who hasn't the smarts to find the page down key on his computer. Besides, I don't recall all that many valuable contributions from this individual. Every list is going to conttain some messages that some person isn't interested in: I for instance am not particularly interested in Japanese ships at his stage in my modeling life, but I have found the page doen key on my keyboard! As far as some of the extraneous stuff, we are a communitty, and I for one would like to learn more about the otther comminity members. It turns srangers on the screen into real people. As to changes/improvements in the style or layout, nothing really important. Perkaps pull in the right margin a bit. otherwise the layout is fine. As to comments about lawyers, I would just ask Bill who he's gonna call next time some jerk rear ends him on the street; a hobbyshop owner? I'll be that when he needs one Bill has no trouble either finding or associating with a lawyer :-) Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26: From: Tim Perry Subject: Making it better - where do we draw the line? Greg, Don't you fret! You are doing just fine, this is one of the most stimulating news groups I have come across, and the balance is just right. I always try to imagine myself at a BIG model club meeting, where lots of different people are standing around, beer in fist, having darn good chin-wag. So what if some conversations shoot of at tangents? They start at 'Model Ships' and before very long come back to 'Model Ships'. If some people have lost the art of good conversation and want to sulk in the mens room, let 'em! In a couple of days time I, and lots of other SMMLies will no doubt be 'interfacing' for REAL at the UK IPMS Nationals at Telford. Can you imagine anyone stalking off because someone started talking about their new job, or car, instead of models? Get real, Mr McCormick! If you don't like the posting, move on to the next one. I have no interest in the Yamato or USN CVs, but I'd hate to see the list devoted just to LCTs and Flower class Corvettes..... Of course the main difference between this newsgroup and the Nationals is that team WEM will be on site at Telford, and I will have some cash in my wallet. I just hope my profit related bonus has arrived by the end of the week!! Perhaps all attending SMMLies should wear a badge or some other form of recognition? Just an idea.... Tim Perry Bristol, UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27: From: louellet@uism.bu.edu Subject: Re: SMML improvements Some comments on suggested SMML improvements: I understand Greg compiles the list by hand; he is not using listserver software. If someone knows where Greg could get a free or cheap listserver program, it would make generating the list much easier. I like the idea of putting the content numbers in the header of each post to make them easier to find. (listservers do this.) The dashed lines and any text are wrapped after 80 characters when I receive SMML. If Greg uses 70-80 as his line limit, perhaps there will be less wrapping when the mail is received by most people. I strongly oppose the sending of attachments, especially pictures. I have free internet access through work so image size and transmission speed are not relevant, but many people out there pay for their access, and any picture would greatly increase the size of the list mailing. (For example, vol. 339 was a large list and my email program says it is 32K big. Most pictures would be 2 - 10 times as big as the SMML list itself!) Pictures belong on web sites or encoded and posted to appropriate usenet newsgroups. Tell anyone who is interested where your picture is located and those interested will go and look. No website? Offer to email it privately to anyone who wants it and contacts you offline. Another argument against attachments is that people will be tempted to send Word files, Office 97 files, and other such formats which many out there may not be able to read. There are hundreds of different email programs out there and the only thing they have in common is that they can read plain text. Colors, fonts, graphics, and attachments only work if everyone has the same capabilities as everyone else, which is definitely not the case. This is not a rant, and not aimed at any one person; I'm just a believer of K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid.) 8-> Just my 2 cents (3 cents Austrailian), nothing else. Off the soapbox... Larry Ouellette Volunteer, USS Salem (CA 139) Quincy, Massachusetts, USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28: From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: Re: Book: Anatomy of the Ship - Yamato Several fellow SMMLies have made enquiries regarding procuring a copy of the long out-of-print book "Anatomy of the Ship - Yamato". I have a copy in new condition, with dust jacket covered in clear protective plastic, which I've read and placed on my shelf. While I'm not anxious to part with it, I sense there are those on this list who would make better use of it as reference material in the construction of a model than I would. I'm not quite sure what to ask for it, so if any of you are interested, perhaps you'd help me figure out an equitable price. Bob Steinbrunn Minnepolis -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29: From: Mike Settle Subject: Re: Making it better - where do we draw the line? Greg, I think that you do an excellent job with the list, and that includes your judgement on non-relevant threads. We have both hobbyists and manufacturers as participants of the list, so I believe the copyright thread is relevant overall. A certain amount of cameraderie will develop among the regulars, and to me, that is a part of the hobby, too. Recently, at a contest and swap meet, I had two other members of this list read my nametag and say, "Hey, I know you." Thanks to this list, (and rec.models.scale) we already knew a little bit about each other. If any thread gets out of hand, relevant or not, then you, as moderator, can choose to end it. If James McCormick has a corn cob up his keester, that's his problem. If a certain message or topic does not interest me, I merely scroll past it. As my Mother used to tell me when I was a pup, "Don't cut off your nose to spite your face." If someone decides to give up the treasure that is SMML due to one thread, that is nothing for you to lose sleep over. Just my not so humble opinion. Mike Settle -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 30) From: Jakloek@aol.com Subject: Fwd: IJN Colors From: James Kloek I am starting work on an IJN Cruiser, and am looking for suggestions for paint. Specifically I am interested in what people use for the gray vertical sides of these ships, what they use for steel decks, and what they use for the linoleum covering on some decks. Is there anything straight out of a bottle which is close? Or does anyone have any favorite blends. I can get Tamiya, Testors, and PolyScale paints locally, but can also mail order Humbrol (I think) and Gunze Sanyo. Any other advice on IJN colors would also be welcome. Since we seem to be discussing occupations, are there any other chemists out there? Chemists in the American, not English sense of the word? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 31) From: Rob & Heather Weilacher Subject: Don't banish me Bill... Don't banish me Bill...I'm not a lawyer. I'm a systems integrator/computer programmer for 6 months now after a 8.5 year career as a structural engineer - oddly enough designing military aircraft hangars primarily. Rob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 32) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Ticnderoga class site >> Skywave also makes a VLS Ticonderoga class cruiser in 1/700. You should check out the US Navy's web site. They have specific info on the Cape St. George which includes about 10 photos of her. << Checkout the Greyhound Navy site. It's devoted mostly to modern warships including the Spruances and Ticos. Lots of good info there on weapon systems, radar and other electronic warfare stuff and ordinance on each ship. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 33) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Appropriate posts Greg, I sent in an answer to someone's post a while back in jest of his complaints about the weather in England and you didn't post it because it wasn't relevant to ship modeling. Thinking back on it I agree you were right. I'm sure no one wants to wade through a pile of personal posts here or anywhere else. That's what the chat rooms are for and there are plenty of them out there. I started the copyright thread and have read the posts from some of the lawyers. I learned a lot and was quite fascinated. It was definitely relevant since we received so many post from manufacturers of ship kits. So I thought it was very relevant. Please restrict the post to relevant ship modeling and informational matters. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 34) From: "Frank and Carol Berger" Subject: Re: Where do we draw the line Greg, I would rather not be defined as a person by what I do to support my hobby. I also don't need to know that much about the personal lives of the other subscribers. My interest in subscribing was to trade information and tips that pertain to my hobby, building model ships. The rest is BS that I have to wade through to get what I want. As Listmaster, you get to decide what is valid and what is not. I suppose if your choice is to run the list loose, I'll have to continue to put up with the BS. Frank -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 35) From: dhjonespsm@juno.com (Daniel H. Jones) Subject: Re: SYDNEY loss - supplemental I would like to add a few comments to the postings. Falk writes: >> As I remember, SYDNEY came very near to KORMORAN to control her identity, >when KORMORAN suddenly tore off the camouflage buildings of her guns and opened fire at point blanc range. << The range quoted in Muggenthaler is 1500 yards - within rifle range. KORMORAN's crew were quite surprised that the cruiser had ventured so close. >> You can critizise SYDNEY's captain >for having been fooled by KORMORAN's camouflage and for being not more cautious. << Also very lax in readiness... KORMORAN survivors stated that SYDNEY's light guns were not manned and crew members seen leaning on the rails observing the freighter - apparently with no concern as to any potential danger. >> But in the situation given, SYDNEY had no real chance after the first salvo had hit her. << SYDNEY did return fire - effectively enough to sink KORMORAN eventually, but it was indeed a very one sided exchange - probably 3 to 1 in favor of the raider. SYDNEY had all four main turrets put out of action and took a torpedo hit at about "B" turret, and was afire from stem to stern when she turned and drifted away. The engagement occurred at about dusk. The glow from the fires was observed until about 10.00 pm and then they were gone, probably indicating that she sank at that time. SYDNEY's return fire set several fires on KORMORAN, stopped the engines, and with the ship dead in the water and no hope of restoring power or controling the spreading fires, she was abandoned at about midnight. About 35 minutes later the ship exploded as the fires reached a large quantity of mines carried on board. The "cover-up". As for the controversy about the presence of a IJN submarine - I have regarded this as nothing more than a rationalization to attempt to explain away the failure of the SYDNEY in allowing herself to be sunk in such an embarrassing manner. In my view there is not a shread of evidence to back up this theory (yes I have read the book - and I do not buy it). National pride dictated that there must have been a "hidden" factor to explain away the loss - when it probably came down to an inexperienced captain and a careless approach to an unknown ship. Further evidence of the lax standards on board SYDNEY is shown by the fact that no attempt was made to use her wireless to check the "Dutch" ship's bone-fides. Shore command did not even know that SYDNEY had made contact with a ship and only began to transmit to her and search for her after she was four days overdue. Dan Jones Plastic Ship Modeler magazine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 36) From: Beynart@aol.com Subject: Re: Format It would help me a great deal if you would quit sending messages as text attachments. Once downloaded they disappear into the nether regions of my PC, never to be seen again. Actually, the text attachments go AWOL; I have a great collection of your headers. Otherwise, I think your site is great! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 37) From: Jowfx@webtv.net (John Fox) Subject: SMML and Occupations I don't mind reading about who's a lawyer or engineer as long as they don't write a book about it. I think it's interesting to find people who have different backgrounds sharing a common interest. John Fox -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 38) From: WVeigele@aol.com Subject: Are there any other physicists out there? I am a physicist and recent member of SMML. I have not made models in a few years because I did research on and wrote a book about the PC Patrol Craft of WWII. I gathered specifications, photos, drawings, and engineering plans and details of the ships. A few people have built PC models. Some day I hope to start one from the data I gathered. See details at http://members.aol.com/wveigele/pcraft/pcraft.htm. I too am interested in knowing if there are any other physicists out there. Bill Veigele -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 39) From: b29@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Where do we draw the line? Greg's question. Seems that we had this debate a few months ago. At the time the concensus was to let the threads go on forever. If folks weren't interested, they could just scroll down past the stuff. My vote then was for you to exercise editorial discretion. Decide what's relevant and what isn't. Don't repeat the same answers over and over and over. I'm still praying that some newcomer doesn't ask about what a "knot" is, and start THAT all over again! So once again, I suggest that you place some limitations on both content and repetition. The site will benefit from that. Paul Jacobs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 40) From: Greg Lee (Listmaster - SMML) Subject: BS, AOL & Greg's question. Hi All, >> From: "Frank and Carol Berger" <> As Listmaster, you get to decide what is valid and what is not. I suppose if your choice is to run the list loose, I'll have to continue to put up with the BS. << Firstly, its not my choice, hence my "Where do we Draw the line?" thread. The idea is to gain a clear perception of what the MAJORITY of SMML readers want to read about, as its Their choice. Secondly, I don't deem anybody's occupation, hobbies, private life or personal interests as BS. And I personally don't feel classifying it as such is fit for the list, so in future I hope we can look forward to more relaxed postings from you. >> From: Beynart@aol.com <> It would help me a great deal if you would quit sending messages as text attachments. Once downloaded they disappear into the nether regions of my PC, never to be seen again. Actually, the text attachments go AWOL; I have a great collection of your headers. Otherwise, I think your site is great! << SMML is not sent as an attachment. I noticed from your address that you are with aol. We have seen this problem before, you need to set up a hotmail account or something, as for some reason, aol is known to "trim" your e-mail for you. >> From: b29@ix.netcom.com <> Seems that we had this debate a few months ago. At the time the concensus was to let the threads go on forever. If folks weren't interested, they could just scroll down past the stuff. << Differance here Paul is that those threads were ship/modelling related. My question now is based on non related info contained in ship related posts ie. occupations, and how much off this "social" info should be allowed? Greg (Listmaster - SMML) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 41) From: "Robert J. Mitchell" Subject: Re: Enterprise Air Group John, there's a write up of Enterprises Air Group in a Back copy of Fine Scale Modeller. I'm not sure if it's the exact period your looking for but it might help.If you can't find it give me a buzz pvt and I'll see if I can scan it and send it too you. I model naval aircraft as well. Greg, personall I don't mind all the stuff about careers, It adds a socail aspect that you tend to get with any model club. We can't exactly go down the pub for a yarn can we. it's interesting hearing about fellow modellers,who they are where they are and why they so interested in certain types of ships. In Austraia I've found the most social of all modellers to be into to trains. followed by Aircraft, Military and then ships. Model shipwrights tend to be a lone breed for some reason. This list fills the void admirably. Like I said in a previous letter, all the modellers in my town seem to be Tankies (Mikitary}. I think all the stuff about careers is interesting provided it doesn't clog up the system for those who aren't intersted regards Bob Mitchell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 42) From: Shane & Lorna Jenkins Subject: Re: Making it better Hi All, Just a few personal observations about the current threads & Greg's comments: SMML to me is like my modelling clubs, the conversation wanders around all over the place, but generally gets back to modelling. If the conversation turns to Flowery comments about the Yamato & then goes on to copyright issues so be it. It also seems that off topic threads either die out relatively quickly or turn into modelling threads. I'm sorry that Jim felt he had to unsubscribe because of the copyright/lawyer threads, but ultimately that's his decision to do so. As to the current thread about the occupations of the subscribers, I am enjoying this, because it fleshes out the poster so that they are not just another name on an email message. As to what's relevent for SMML, I'd say that in general cars, AFV's, SF & planes were way out :-). Anything else? But seriously I have no complaints about Greg's handling of SMML. His moderating of the list is excellant. Even though I enjoy RMS & the WW1 list, SMML is the one I look forward to every evening. It has just the right blend of humour, news & expertise. All the best: Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 43) From: Shane & Lorna Jenkins Subject: HMAS Sydney Hi All, First off, lets put paid to the theory that HMAS Sydney was sunk by a Japanese I-400 (?) sub, according to the books I've read there were no japanese subs around the west coast of Australia at that time. It was also before Pearl Harbour so any attack would have been an act of war, possibly before they were ready. Yes HMAS Sydney did have a new captain & there was also if I remember correctly a fault in some circuits that were not rectified in previous refits even though they were known. The various conspiracy buffs in Australia also can't seem to come to a conclusion about the facts leading up to the sinking. In all honesty the Sydney was most probably just outfoxed by Detmers captain of the Kormoran. A fellow list member Simon Wolff(sorry Simon :-) ) has a copy of book on HMAS Sydney where I'm trying to remember all this info from & hopefully will correct any mistakes & add any pertinent comments. References for HMAS Sydney Topmill Press Australian warships through the lens: pp 77 Royal Australian Navy Profile No 1 Major warships: pp50 - 53 Australian seapower profile No 4 Cruisers: pp 50 - 55 Australian navy in WW2 profile No 5 Doubleday Australian & NZ warships 1914-45 Ross Gillett: pp 91 - 94 The above books have good pictures in them which corresponds with Falk's comments about colours. All the best, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 44) From: "Pletscher-Lenz-Schneider" Subject: GRAF SPEE The dummy stack and turret were removed on Dec.3, 1939. But they should have been rigged again for the breakthrough for home which was planned after a short visit to the River Plat area. (As we all know, this visit was to become much longer than desired) Falk Pletscher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 45) From: DKrakow105@aol.com Subject: Re: Graf Spee Colors Hi I have been researching the Graf Spee recently and also wonder the exact deck colors for the various platforms. I know that the Kriegsmarine was using a dark brown linoleum deck covering for some time, perhaps as late as 1939. KM light cruisers, built in roughly the same period as the Spee, made extensive use of this material to cover steel decks. Also the searchlight platforms on some of these ships were covered with wood grates. I therefore would not be in a haste to say that the Spee's steel decks were dark grey. I would say that for a pre-war model of the Spee, dark brown would be appropriate for decks above the first superstructure level, with a medium reddish brown to represent wood gratings probably used at the command bridge, which is forward from the tower. Dark grey for the searchlight platforms and the small steel deck area at the bow, as well as the folding deck extentions provided for the secondary armamanent, near the sides of the funnel. Assuming that there was a general order for removal of lino on KM ships, (I presently have no documentation to support this, though it seems probable) replace dark grey for dark brown for a late (1939) Spee. A (restored) contemporary model of the Panzerschiff Deutschland at the German Museum in Munich, shows decks above the first superstructure level covered with brown lino. I think there is a 1:100 contemporary shipyard model of the Spee's sistership, the Admiral Scheer, at the US Naval Academy Museum in Annapolis, which would be good evidence of the Spee's deck colors. Unfortunately I have not yet seen it. Any reader know where to get color photos of this model? Furthermore, the Spee kits and plans I have seen are simplifications which require a lot of research work to get them up to high standards. This is a result of a lack of documentation, as well as the confusion caused by her many refits. So check your photos closely to get the model's appearance correct for the time period you choose. Also, for anyone who might be interested, a set of 1933 blueprints were returned by the Soviets in the late 80s and presently reside at German National Archives in Koblenz. Upon inquiry, the nice people at Koblenz can no longer locate the plans in their archives due to a "problem with their filing system", in other words they are lost again... Fortunately, I aquired a copy from "unofficial sources", which in Germany are often the only sources. I plan to publish the plans somtime, along with numerous (unfortunately black and white) photos I have collected. Will keep you posted. Cheers David Krakow -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Greg Lee (Listmaster - SMML) Subject: Improvements Hi Gang, Well, the columns have been set to 70 characters per line, and the template has been adjusted to show message numbers for each individual message. Two great ideas put into action - well done! As far as posting pics to the list, I still stand firm on that, I really don't think it is possible, for 2 reasons, firstly, not everybody wants them, and secondly, not everybody has the equipment/download speed and hard disk size to cope with it. Although I did have a thought on the matter, perhaps we could start a seperate SMML picture list, where SMML readers have the OPTION to subscribe to it, and receive the pictures if they want - so if the majority likes this idea, we will select a Pic-Master by vote after candidates volunteer their services I Hope you like the new look, and if you have any other ideas, send em in! Greg (Listmaster - SMML) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Shaya Novak" Subject: Naval Base Sale SMMLers We have a few Blue Water Navy ships at bargain prices. 1/350 Resin kits. List Price Sale Price Shipping USS Hornet 950.00 695.00 15.00 USS S. Dakota 550.00 395.00 10.00 USS W. Virginia 425.00 325.00 10.00 order at www.navalbasehobbies.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: U.K. IPMS Nationals For those of you who don't yet know, the U.K. Nationals are being held this weekend 24th/25th October at Telford International Convention Centre (about 30 miles NW of Birmingham, just off the M54). It is running both days at our new venue. This is the largest, the busiest, and, quite seriously, the best Nationals in the World with numerous SIGs and Club stands, traders and visitors from all over the world, and a great competition. Telford and Ironbridge have so much to offer the visitor that families will find plenty to see and do.. RAF Cosford is a 10 minute drive.. The medieval town of Shrewsbury is 15 minutes in the other direction. Competition entries close lunchtime Saturday. If you are an IPMS member you can 1. get in for free and 2. enter models for no charge (we run ours a little differently to the US IPMS). WEM will be running a load of specials on ship model kits and ship kit accessories, so get your winter modelling planned by picking up a Red "SPECIALS" sheet as soon as you arrive. Some kits are in fairly short supply until after the Nationals. Offers will only apply over the weekend. Peter Hall, Dave and I, look forward to seeing quite a few of you there! BTW, apologies for delays around this time, shipping orders... everything will hopefully be back to normal at the end of next week!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Percy, John" Subject: Ebay yamato sale Was on Ebay (http://www.ebay.com/ - a great place to find old kits), and saw Nichimo's 1/200 Yamato for sale. Bidding started at $50, was partially assembled. Auction lasts for 4 days. Here's the link for anyone interested I am not selling - or bidding on - this kit, just happened to see it for you Yamatoholics out there. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=36969764 John Percy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume