Subject: SMML11/05/99VOL542 Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 00:17:41 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: SS Edmund Fitzgerald song 2: HMS Gloucester 3: Gordon Lightfoot and the Viking 4: Re: EDMUND FITZGERALD 5: Re: USS O'BANNON 6: USS Missouri Bofor Splinter Shield 7: PCE(Patrol Craft Escort) 8: 1/350 Fletcher 9: Wreck of Edmund Fitzgerald 10: Re: Viking Models 11: Re: SS Edmund Fitzgerald 12: USN, IJN and RN colours 13: The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald 14: Alvin 15: Re: Smithsonian Institiute 16: Re: SMML across America 17: Re: SS Edmund Fitzgerald 18: Russian Vosper Camoflauge 19: Z 26 colours 20: Potemkin and Aurora 21: O class DD build -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Snyder & Short Enterprises Address 2: Atlantic Models forthcoming releases 3: Thoroughbred Figures naval paints 4: Classic Warships -NEW-1/350 Weapons and Fittings Sets-NEW- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "joseph w. reyna" Subject: Re: SS Edmund Fitzgerald song >> Off topic - Sort of The posts recently re the Edmund Fitzgerald has set me wondering about the songs written about the wreck by, I think, Gordon Lightfoot. Anybody out there know if there's a CD out there with that song on it. On a good day I can remember about half of the verses of it, but I sure like to have the full version to hand, one of these days << Shane, A longish reply, but I've always loved hearing this sea shanty by Mr Lightfoot. Joe Reyna For Colin, and the other SMML-lies, here are the words to Gordon Lightfoot's haunting "Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald": The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down Of the big lake they called Gitchigumi The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead When the skies of November turn gloomy With a load of iron ore twenty-six thousand tons more Than the Edmund Fitzgerald weighed empty That good ship and crew was a bone to be chewed When the "Gales of November" came early. The ship was the pride of the American side Coming back from some mill in Wisconsin As the big freighters go, it was bigger than most With a crew and good captain well seasoned Concluding some terms with a couple of steel firms When they left fully loaded for Cleveland And later that night when the ship's bell rang Could it be the north wind they'd been feeling? The wind in the wires made a tattle-tale sound When the waves broke over the railing And every man knew, as the captain did too, T'was the witch of November come stealing. The dawn came late and the breakfast had to wait When the gales of November came slashing When afternoon came it was freezing rain In the face of a hurricane west wind. When suppertime came, the old cook came on deck saying "Fellas, it's too rough to feed ya." At seven PM the main hatchway caved in, he said "Fellas, it's been good to know ya" The captain wired in he had water coming in And the good ship and crew was in peril. And later that night when his lights went out of sight Came the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. Does any one know where the love of God goes When the waves turn the minutes to hours? The searchers all say they'd have made Whitefish Bay If they'd put fifteen more miles behind her. They might have split up or they might have capsized; They may have broke deep and took water. All that remains are the faces and the names Of the wives and the sons and the daughters. Lake Huron rolls, Superior sings In the rooms of her icewater mansion. Old Michigan steams like a young man's dreams; The isles and bays are for sportsmen. And farther below Lake Ontario Takes in what Lake Erie can send her, And the iron boats go as the mariners all know With the gales of November remembered. In a musty old hall in Detroit they prayed, In the "Maritime Sailors' Cathedral." The church bell chimed till it rang twenty-nine times For each man on the Edmund Fitzgerald. The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down Of the big lake they call Gitchigumi Superior, they said, never gives up her dead When the gales of November come early. Cheers all. Joe Reyna (Where in Oceanside, CA it's "June Gloom" with early morning clouds and fog each and every morning - but after listening to this song, I'm certainly not complaining) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: HMS Gloucester Hi all I just noticed that BBC2 are doing a programme on the loss of the Gloucester tomorrow at 7.30 pm. If you live in Britian its probably worth setting your video. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Robert A. Clifton, R.A." Subject: Gordon Lightfoot and the Viking To Colin Ritchie- Try Gordon Lightfoot "Gords Gold, Volume Two." Not only does it include the track you're looking for, but it also will make you a Gordon Lightfoot fan. To Brad Chauser and the Vikings- I'm glad that things worked out for Brad, but I'm not a firm believer in the "we just moved" crap. The problems described were caused while the kits were being assembled, not afterwards. Unless they were assembled in the moving van, I can't accept that as an excuse. It seems to me that an awful lot of small manufacturers in this hobby move! Some seem to do it very often. They (Viking) put an email address on their instructions, I wrote to them. I received no response. Neither did Charles T. We were both missing the same parts. In this industry, decals are always difficult because you can't just make a single set. I think that they packed the kits without them, and just haven't received enough complaints to have new sets done. That may work for them, it doesn't work for me. Companies like Commanders/Iron Shipwright go out of their way to provide excellent customer service, Viking doesn't even respond. Possibly 35% of all resin kits purchased have missing or broken pieces. I for one won't take the chance again with these guys. They beat me once, they won't get a second chance. To Rusty, to tell you the truth, that was the reason why I hadn't purchased your CIWS kit. Please let us know when and where we can get the newly cast kits. Good luck Viking, you guys will need it. Bob Clifton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: EDMUND FITZGERALD For the CD version of Gordon Lightfoot's ballad of her loss, look for the CD "Gord's Gold"; it on there. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: USS O'BANNON A certain Mr. Vimieraa@aol.com brings up the subject of her camo scheme in 11/42. The one photo I have of her in Ms.12 (mod) was published in _Action Tonight: The Story of the American Destroyer O'Bannon in the Pacific_ (1945). It is a portside shot taken from just slightly aft of abeam, with the ship lying at anchor. The date and location of the photo are not noted, and I suspect it shows her just after completion, still in the Atlantic. All other photos of O'BANNON (and her sisters) in the book show her in Ms.21, and I tend to agree that she probably repainted at Pearl Harbor as she transitted to the South Pacific. As for JUNEAU, I have the complete text of her war diary up to the time of her loss. The last repainting specifically mentioned was the Ms.12 (mod) where she used what was described in the text as "off-white", which clearly shows as the lightest color on the photos of her at that time. That, of course, doesn't preclude the fact that she may have subsequently repainted to Ms.21 (ATLANTA, after all, had her entire hull in Navy Blue 5-N at the time of her loss), and that that portion of her war diary went down with her. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Patrick Roach Subject: USS Missouri Bofor Splinter Shield Help, I lost one of the G*D D@%N'd Bofor splinter shields provided on Tamiya's 350th scale Missouri kit. That leaves 19, good for Iowa bad for Missouri. I have looked everywhere except the vacuum cleaner bag. Thought I would try begg'n here first before I grovel before the Oreck. I know there are detail kits for these but I just want one of the plain ol' Tamiya version's. Anyone out there not use they're Tamiya Bofor splinter shields? Thanks Pat -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Kcompany@webtv.net (Marvin Reichman) Subject: PCE(Patrol Craft Escort) I am converting an Admirable type minesweeper to one of the above captioned. Essentially without the sweeping equipment they were the same. However I am confused about armament. Janes indicates they had two 3' guns one fore and one aft. Navy plans indicate a single 40MM aft where Janes says the 3' would be. Was it different on each PCE or is someone wrong. It is difficult to find decent photos of these ships. Any help would be appreciated. - Thanks -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: crofoot@bfm.org (Crofoot, Christopher) Subject: 1/350 Fletcher I know that there is a conversion for a square bridge Fletcher. I recently aquired a tamiya 350 fletcher and I'd like to convert her..possibly post-war. Anybody know who makes the conversion and anybody have ideas for an interesting conversion. Chris Crofoot -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: aaron.bishop@anstec.com Subject: Wreck of Edmund Fitzgerald I own a tape copy. Best of Gordon Lightfoot Vol II. I'll send tape information tomorrow when I dig out the tape for you. Aaron -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Dave Judy Subject: Re: Viking Models I too, had a problem with their first release of the Texas 1/350, which had numerable casting problems, and they sent me a whole new kit! Dave Judy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Bill Schnakenberg Subject: Re: SS Edmund Fitzgerald You can find the verses here: http://www.nauticalworks.com/fitz/ef_lyric.html Bill PSP Terrorist - D'Lanok de Caresk chapter - Anti-Troll Unit 235 Serial Numbers-R-Us! The USS Salem, CA-139. The World's only preserved Heavy Cruiser, Quincy, MASS. http://members.xoom.com/ltwes329/salem.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Robert & Rose Brown Subject: USN, IJN and RN colours I'm busy with several projects at the current time and would like to find out what manufacturer's paint will match the following: WWII USN Haze Gray 5-H WWII USN Ocean Gray 5-0 WWII USN Deck Blue 20-B WWII Royal Navy 507C WWII Royal Navy 507A WWII IJN Deck linoleum as found on cruisers and some destroyers WWII IJN Hull Gray Modern USN Hull Gray Modern USN Deck Gray Modern USN Hull Gray as used on the Pegasus class hydrofoils, which appears to be a different colour than the usual, at least in the photos I have. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Jeff Herne" Subject: The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald Here's the lyrics, it's off Gordon Lightfoot's Album "Summertime Dream" released in 1976. I was brought up on an Indian Reserve that straddles the St. Lawrence River, and my father used to take me to the Eisenhower & Snell Locks in Massena, NY, when the big ships would come down the river. I may have seen the Edmund Fitgerald, was too young to remember details like names, etc. "Song snipped by Shane, due to it already being posted" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Lisa and Bill Wiseman Subject: Alvin Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute has a great web site with plans and pictures of Alvin as well as other research vessels in their fleet. I know it doesn't fix the problem with Viking but it might help get your Alvin kits built. I too, have the Alvin kit but mine has decals and readable directions (must've been early in the production run). I don't have the WHOI web address in front of me but I found it by typing "Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute" in the web browser and it found the site. I found the site while researching Titanic for my Minicraft Kit project. The Alvin site has an exploded drawing (in color) and about 5 pages of "in Action " pictures plus 4 or 5 pages of pics taken from her tear down and re-fit. Hope this helps, Doc Wiseman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Re: Smithsonian Institiute Kurt noted - >> A personal observation - I find the Smithsonian to be an "awfully PC", they spend a lot of effort apologizing for our history rather than celebrating it. For example, the exhibit on the Internment of Americans of Japanese ancestry (not a stellar chapter in our history, I admit) is larger than the history of the US Navy. Guess you can't help that these days... << Quite right, and there are/were a few other exhibits of a similar nature. I recall one was an art exhibition about how the white man despoiled the Wild West in the 19th C. A lot of the "Seeds of Change" exhibit on Columbus back in 1992 was also biased in the same manner. The biggest stink of all occurred in 1995 when they wanted to display the rebuilt B-29 "Enola Gay" and the first rendition read as if the USA went and dropped nukes on innocent, peace-loving Japanese just for kicks. That ticked off enough veterans groups and other people that the exhibit was almost cancelled. A few heads rolled and a more mainstream exhibit finally saw the light of day. A few books on the subject have even been written for anyone who cares to delve into it in more detail. Mike L Alexandria, VA USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Re: SMML across America Hello Everyone, Well, I almost made it to Groton - I am in New London. That darned Coast Guard museum is going to throw a wrench into my plans Today I survived my trip into New York (and my trip out, which was an adventure!) Nothing like getting drafted like a NASCAR racer by a semi-truck when your going 70! I saw the Intrepid in the morning - she hasn't changed a lot in the few years since my last visit. They have reduced the number of ships there - the lightship and the destroyer escort have both been moved elsewhere. The Intrepid looks in good shape - a very impressive site along the waterfront. I particularly like the way they have positioned aircraft to look like they are being catapulted off. Inside, she has a lot of displays, though less than the Yorktown. There are nice models of the Alaska and an Iowa class in 1/96 scale there, along with a well built model of the Intrepid by a local modeler. An unusual artifact is a very large model of the USS Nevada used during the filming of Tora Tora Tora and other productions. Though weathered, this is a very interesting model (I am not sure what scale, but she was at least 20 feet long, maybe larger). The Growler and the Edson appear to be in good shape too. There is also a research vessel preserved there, as well as an Army tug, the Hackensack (YTM-750). An unexepected bonus was seeing the Queen Elizabeth 2 tied up at the next pier - I walked up to the top of an adjacent parking garage and got a good look at this very handsome ship. From there, I paid a visit to the shop of one of our fellow list members, Shaya Novak. The retail outlet of Naval Base Hobbies is just what you might expect - lots of nice kits and books, with the added bonus of many quality built up models on display. Shaya was kind enough to show me some of his reference libary, and generally made me feel at home. If only he had put down that scrap of red carpet he promised Seriously, if you are visiting the Big Apple, you owe it to yourself to visit there, if only to say to your friends that you visited a hobby shop that sells nothing but ship models. If you bring your significant other, she will have plenty to do in the area, as a lot of well known shops are near there. Other places to see in the NY area for those interested in ship modeling would be Southport Ship Museum (a collection of sail ships and nice museum). Also, there is a good collection on the American merchant marine at Kings Point Maritime Academy. Kurt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Thomas Richardson Subject: Re: SS Edmund Fitzgerald >> The posts recently re the Edmund Fitzgerald has set me wondering about the songs written about the wreck by, I think, Gordon Lightfoot. Anybody out there know if there's a CD out there with that song on it. On a good day I can remember about half of the verses of it, but I sure like to have the full version to hand, one of these days << Hello everyone. Mr Ritchie's question is an interesting one, and one I have been pondering for a while myself. While I own a copy of the original 45RPM recording, it is scratchy and hiss-filled, not unlike the music today's youth enjoy. Come to think of it, most of my records are that way. I shall try and dig it up, as well as the old phonograph to play it on, and copy down the lyrics. On a lighter note, a few years back, I saw Mr Lightfoot at a concert in Elyria Ohio and he joked about the song being the only thing people remember. He even sang the following lyrics during the song: "The Legend lives on, from Ohio on down, of the only song people remember..." It was quite humorous. He even quipped about being asked to do the National Anthem and his version of it was to the tune of Edmond Fitzgerald. "Oh Say, can you see, by, the dawn's, early light..." (This only works if you sing it like 'The Legend lives on from the Chippewa on down...) I understand that Walthers is advertising an Edmond Fitzgerald kit for their waterfront series. Rev Thomas Richardson "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherin thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things." Romans 2:1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Marc Flake Subject: Russian Vosper Camoflauge Hey Smmlers, I'm building the Revell British Vosper MTB, which -- according to a previous SMML posting, is actually a Russian Vosper. That's okay with me. I'll just build him (Ruskies give their ships male identities) as a Russian. The only problem is that I've searched high and low on the web and in our sadly deficient library for photos of Russian MTB camoflauge patterns. I have run across some destroyer camo patterns, but no MTBs. The big ships didn't seem to carry camo. And, Snyder and Short, I'm not even going to ask about actual colors -- I'll just guess at those. I understand that "Allied Costal Vessels of WWII" is out of print. Even so, at $47.50 per volume (two volumes), that's a pretty steep price to pay to paint an $11 model. And I'm not even sure these books have what I'm looking for. Anyone out there in SMMLand have a reference you could photocopy or scan and send to me? Marc in Mansfield (TX) Have airbrush, will mask. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Pletscher-Lenz-Schneider" Subject: Z 26 colours Z 26 was commissioned with a camouflage scheme which is shown in Whitley's book "Destroyers of World War Two", page 65 or in Koop/Schmolke, "Die deutschen Zerstörer 1935-1945", page 202. In this book there is also a drawing of this pattern on page 136. Another fine photo can be found in the book of Breyer, "Die Deutsche Kriegsmarine 1935-1945" Vol.7, "Zerstörer und Torpedoboote", page 132. This scheme was similar to that of Z 5 PAUL JAKOBI which is shown on the back cover of Whitley's book "Destroyer" (first edition), or that of Z 7 HERMANN SCHOEMANN which is shown in the second (revised) edition of this book on page 125. Most probably the pattern was symmetrical on both sides. The photo of Z 26 in Warship which is showing the same pattern as Z 30, actually shows Z 30 rather than Z 26. There is no other photo of Z 26 showing this scheme, but the same photo is usually captioned to show Z 30. I found at least one photo of Z 30 in my collection which shows the same pattern on the port side. So this scheme was symmetrically. If you want to build a model with this specific camouflage scheme, you'd better decide for Z 30. But if you want to build Z 26, you will be on the safe side if you chose the pattern she wore after commissioning. Decks were usually painted dark gray. Falk Pletscher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Suvoroff@aol.com Subject: Potemkin and Aurora Fellow modellers; I recently saw a couple of models of these ships in a local hobby shop, in very cheap Eastern European boxes. I heard these were originally Western (Heller?) kits; does anybody know anything about these? Are they any good as kits, and is the accuracy any good? Yours, James D. Gray -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Shane Subject: O class DD build Hi gang, Well the next project definitely will an O class DD, I'm looking at the WEM brass now. So any hints & tips on building the Tamiya(ex Skywave) 1/700 kit will be greatly appreciated. I have Nat Richard's article & some notes from Tim Stoneman which a mate sent to me. But any extra help/references won't go astray. As it is I don't know which one to do yet, but one that doesn't have any "dazzle" will be the go. Regards, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: John Snyder Subject: Snyder & Short Enterprises Address While our address has not changed, the U.S. Postal Service is insisting that the way it is placed on our mail must change (could it be they're annoyed at competition from private mail box companies?). Anyway, all interested should note that you should now address mail to us as follows: Snyder & Short Enterprises PMB 224 9175 Kiefer Boulevard Sacramento CA 95826 Phone and fax numbers, and e-mail address remain unchanged. Thanks, John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Peter Hall" Subject: Atlantic Models forthcoming releases Hello Everyone, Just to let you know that I have been fairly busy recently sorting out what I am going to produce a kit of next. Well here is the situation. The 1/350 scale Russian Cruiser Admiral Ushakov (ex Kirov) is on track for release late this year. It is a monster at 28 inches long, with a massive superstructure the like of which is rarely seen on a western warship. Unfortuneatly for some, this is going to be a waterline kit as I do not have any information to make an accurate lower hull. Having said that, if anyone out there is interested in this subject and has details of the lower hull, I may be persuaded to make the addition for those who want it. A smaller subject, for those who wish to remain sane a little longer, in the shape of the well known US Knox class Frigate, once again in 1/350 scale. This will also be released later this year. Which particular ship of the class it will be I have not yet decided, but Knox or McCandless look hot tips. The above kits will be available through White Ensign Models, so register your interest or place orders with Caroline. HMS Peacock 1997 vintage in 1/350 scale is now available, also the Photo Etch fittings set for the old Frog/Novo/Chematic etc Shell Welder. Just contact White Ensign Models. Best Wishes Peter Hall. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "CARLTON BARRETT" Subject: Thoroughbred Figures naval paints Thoroughbred Figures (owner Toby Barrett), in conjunction with the U.S. distributor of Vallejo Model Colors, has put together a special collection of naval paint colors suitable for 19th Century steam/auxiliary ship models. Vallejo Model Colors Acrylic Paint, imported from Spain, offers the hobbyist one of the widest selections of colors. The paint is highly pigmented by a special process designed with the miniaturist in mind. This pigmentation results in a dead flat opaque finish which, in most cases, covers with one application. Model Colors can be applied to all surfaces including metal, plastics and polyesters. On metal surfaces a coat of primer is recommended. Other Vallejo Packs include selections for model soldier uniforms from the Napoleonic period through WW2 Allies and Germans. This is the first Naval Pack being offered. Vallejo Model Colors are currently very popular in Europe and are fast replacing oils as the desired choice for artists and miniaturists. All colors are water based and can be easily mixed to achieve any desired hue. Colors contain no lead, solvents or any ingredient that may be a health risk. Clean up is with water. When paint is dry, it is waterproof and permanent. There are 16 colors in the Naval Pack and each color comes in a 17 millimeter soft plastic bottle with an eyedropper dispenser. The dispenser greatly reduces waste as only what is needed is released. The packaging prevents evaporation and thus maximizes its shelf life. The colors are packed in a clear plastic window box which slides open. This type of box allows for easy color identification, safe storage and convenience when traveling. Order Naval Set #RK201 (19th Century Steam/Aux. Sail) - $36.00 Shipping $4 plus $1 for each additional set. VA residents add 4.5% Sales Tax. Check, Money Order, Visa, Master Card or Discover Card Accepted. See our link on the Warship Main Web Page or send to: Thoroughbred Figures 4106 Timberland Drive Portsmouth, VA 23703 757-686-1048 Email: trbarrett@worldnet.att.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Classic Warships -NEW-1/350 Weapons and Fittings Sets-NEW- Classic Warships will release over 40 different fittings and weapons sets in 1/350 Scale for both USN ( WWII & Post WWII ) and IJN sets from their extensive inventory of white metal parts and photo etch sets. Anyone ever wanting to scratch build any USN or IJN ship type from WWII would now have the option, and shortcut, of using commercially available parts. These are the same parts used in all Classic Warship kits. They will be bagged in small sets that make sense, like the "1/350 5in./25 Gun Set" (8 x 5in./25 mount & 1 x 5in. practice gun), or the "1/350 IJN Searchlight Set" (2 x 30cm, 2 x 60cm, & 6 x 110cm searchlights). This keeps the sets small, so you can get almost exactly what you need, keeping the price lower and not turning into a logistical nightmare for me! All kit pricing will be announced upon their release in June, and will be initially carried by Pacific Front Hobbies, IN JUNE !!! Thanks, Steve Wiper/Classic Warships -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume