Subject: SMML VOL 799 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 00:08:55 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: USS Washington 2: Fine Scale Modeler 3: IPMS-USA Ship class question 4: Help LOL 5: Re: 1:350 scale 4 piper 6: Re: Enterprise in '42 7: Re: Iron Shipwright Wickes/Clemson Destroyer in 1/350 scale 8: Re: Viking Models 9: Re: eBay Oriskany 10: Re: Saratoga & Victorious 11: Lost Admiral 12: Re: Reviews and Opinions 13: Re: USS Washington 14: Re: HELP (animating your model) 15: Re: USS Washington 16: Re: 1:700 subs 17: Re: Eastern Fleet 18: Illustrious V Essex 19: Bretagne 20: Whatever 21: USS Washington 22: LOL's cry for Help 23: Re: BB-62 antifouling color 24: A Arcs 25: Re: BPF 26: Re: USS Washington 27: Hull Numbers & Stern Names 28: Re: German range finders 29: USS Washington 30: 1/72 Iowa turret project 31: Don't know what happened 32: Admiral Overboard 33: French CVLs off Indochina 34: HMS Vanguard 35: Re: Iron Shipwrong 36: Most Accurate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: FS 2: Re: Knox class model and detail set -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Ferek, Ronald" Subject: Re: USS Washington >> A little snippet I came accross. Washington sailed to Scapa in March 1942. On passage she lost her admiral overboard in 'mysterious circumstances'. Out of curiosity who was the unfortunate individual and what was so 'mysterious' about his loss? << Chris, Read all about it, right here: http://www.flash.net/~hfwright/moverbrd.htm Ron Ferek Arlington, VA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Kurt Van Dahm Subject: Fine Scale Modeler There has been some discussion regarding FSM magazine and their lack of ship models pro and con and various reasons some will or will not submit articles or read the magazine. Just found out that they will be publishing a two part article by Mike Ashey (author of Kalmbach's "Building and Detailing Scale Model Ships") whose Tamiya 1/350 scale USS Missouri equipped with Gold Medal Models photoetched details that will appear in the March 2000 issue. This is the first part of a major two-part article on building and superdetailing the Tamiya kit. Part Two will follow in the April 2000 issue. Seems to me FSM appears to be serious in covering ship models as with this coming two-part article plus the ships they have been featuring in the "readers models" section they seem to be trying to give us ship modelers a reason to buy the magazine beyond their good coverage of paints, techniques, etc. Take care, Kurt Van Dahm Westmont, IL NRG member -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Ed Grune Subject: IPMS-USA Ship class question Hello SMMLies: I'm going to address this question to the group, even though I know that the Head Ship Judge is a member of the list - I wanted to get feedback from the group. In the hobby ship this morning I saw a new kit of an "advanced conceptual attack submarine".It is not the Seawolf class, nor is it a Virginia (NSSN) class - according to press release drawings I have seen. It is long and skinny, the "Victor"-like sail is mounted very forward, and it has a shrouded propulsor. I know that aircraft that never were - not even on paper - are often classified as "fantasy" models when it comes to judging. Once I did the Testors F-19 Stealth fighter and it was relegated to the realm of fantasy. Would this sub that never is and never was be classified a ship/sub or a fantasy model? Ed Mansfield, TX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Kurt Van Dahm Subject: Help LOL >> I have had this dream of building a ship and having the radar turn, guns rotate, lights on the deck and tower light and the props turn... What kind of motor set up or book on this info do you or anyone else recommend. << Check out Bill Zumwalt's r/c towboat web site as he gives some very good tips on how to achieve these operating features in an affordable manner. However, the hollow plastic hull might cause a bit of amplified noise (sort of like a speaker enclosure) with the motors running. Solid mounting and possibly some heavy materials laid into the hull will help reduce such noise. Bills site is at http://www.ktis.net/~wzumwalt/ Take care, Kurt Van Dahm Westmont, IL NRG member -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: ironship@usit.net (Jon Warneke) Subject: Re: 1:350 scale 4 piper Hi Everyone, >> Since you do say any, do you include parts for the 4-piper captured by the Japanese and repaired for use as a patrol boat? Books are packed for moving, but I believe this was USS STEWART. << I wasn't clear on this, but it will only build USN DD conversions. The DM, DMS, and AVD conversions may come at a later date. As for the STEWART (you're correct on this), you can't do it directly from this kit, but with the open bridge area, open midships area, correct length and beam, and it's design for numerous variants of DD's, you will be able to construct a much more accurate and complete replica of the STEWART than you previously could with less work. Jon Warneke Commander Series Models, Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "John Sheridan" Subject: Re: Enterprise in '42 >> Yet another Enterprise question in her 1942 configuration. Can anyone tell me what color(s) the hanger decks were painted? << The walls and ceiling are painted: Inside White Formula 27 The floor is to be painted: Light Gray Deck Formula 20-L John R. Sheridan I am not a Member of the Lumber Cartel (tinlc) and I am not Unit #631 Last last place on earth I would look for the Lumber Cartel(tm) is http://come.to/the.lumber.cartel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Ed Grune Subject: Re: Iron Shipwright Wickes/Clemson Destroyer in 1/350 scale Matt Prager (A Minesweep Sailor) asked: >> Are included to build the Destroyer Minelayer (DM) or Destroyer Minesweeper (DMS) variants? << Ah, I can see it now. DMS 22 - the USS Caine. Accessories include a little Humphrey Bogart-ish figure as CAPT Queeg, rolling some ball bearings in his hand while he looks for the missing strawberries. Ed Mansfield, TX Take the time to read the Caine Mutiny, a facinating study. And it was made into a pretty good movie. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Viking Models >> Just a question for the list, Has anyone seen or built the Viking Models PBR and LSSC in 1/72nd scale? How are the kits, details, are they worth the time and effort ? Since I love the "Shallow Water Gunboats", plus they are my era, just wondering. I appreciate any info you could share, Thanks. << Just a word of caution before you deal with these guys. Go to my web site and check out "Beware Viking Models". Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: eBay Oriskany I found it. Looks like the auction has ended. Gotta be fast. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=239005900 Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Saratoga & Victorious >> Incidentally, HMS Victorious was lent to the US in 1942. She was equipped with US aircraft and she sailed for some months in the South Pacific with the Saratoga, so that the Enterprise could return home for repairs. That would be a an interesting model (or diorama). << It would make an interesting diorama, but it was actually mid-1943 when this occurred. VICTORIOUS reported for duty with TF 14 on 17 May 1943. When TF 14 sortied, it was made up of SARA and VIC, CLAAs SAN JUAN and SAN DIEGO, and DDs CASE, CRAVEN, CUMMINGS, DUNLAP, FANNING, GRIDLEY, MAURY, and McCALL. They were then joined by BBs MASSACHUSETTS, NORTH CAROLINA, and INDIANA and their DD screen. IIRC, VICTORIOUS was painted up in Measure 21 at Pearl Harbor on her way out, and for security reasons was referred to as USS ROBIN. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys (Now, back to making up RN2 sets....) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Lost Admiral It was Rear Admiral John W. Wilcox who was lost overboard from WASHINGTON during transit to the UK in March 1942. I have read some accounts that theorize he committed suicide or been murdered, but I don't think anyone has ever shown why that might be. A lookout saw a man go overboard and gave the alrm, but lost sight of the man in the whitecaps of the rough water. When they held muster, they found all hands present. It wasn't until they went to report the matter to the Admiral that they realized it was he who was missing. WASP launched a scout bomber to search for him, but he was never found. Wilcox liked to "prowl the decks on improvised inspections." The likely truth is that he chose to go topside in rough weather on a BB that was very "wet" in those conditions, and was simply swept overboard. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Reviews and Opinions >> In response to Tom Dougherty's comments about our Sub Kits, I thought they might have been a bit to harsh. When I decided to become a kit producer I realized that I would have to develop a thick skin. Having 5 kids and two of them teen-agers I knew it wouldn't be hard to get there! I've always strived to get as close as possible with my products, given limitations of time, money and information available. << >> Any geek with calipers can find fault with a kit. My point is that we are dealing with a scale that measures out to 1"=58.333' or .0171429=1' in scale, and unless you have little else in life to do than to mike parts, relax, enjoy the hobby... << Joe- Let me reiterate, I welcome new model makers. Always looking for new good kits, and hope that JAG Collective can deliver. The reason I measured the sail on the Sturgeon is because I was asked to check them by another individual (who was not a sub expert and was reviewing the kits for a publication) because they also looked wrong to his eye. The enlarged sail is one of the key features that distinguishes this class from the preceding Permit class, The sail was off by a considerable (scale) amount both in length and height (if I recall the values were off by about 20-25%). On a waterline sub, there's not much else above the waterline except a small part of the hull and the sail, so you would like them to be accurate. The length of the hull above water also scaled out to longer than the length of the Sturgeon class (both short and long hull versions). There were other minor issues, such as the rudder shape on the Skipjack kit. I'm sorry, didn't mean to offend you, but we as a group tend to prize accuracy, and discuss it endlessly in this forum. I am always happy to make available any scale drawings and/or information I have on submarines. I appreciate model makers taking on submarine models and stand ready to copy and or lend my research materials gratis to any interested parties. Again, I hope JAG Collective is successful and truly wish you the very best. Clearly you do have a number of fans out there already, and I would like to be among them. Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Jerry Slagle Subject: Re: USS Washington You can find out the story about the admiral that fell overboard at: http://www.flash.net/~hfwright/moverbrd.htm This is a very interesting website, Jerry -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Darren Scannell Subject: Re: HELP (animating your model) >> I have had this dream of building a ship and having the radar turn, guns rotate, lights on the deck and tower light and the props turn... What kind of motor set up or book on this info do you or anyone else recommend. It would be greatly appreciated as I have been thinking about this for about 15 yrs. << These types of functions are pretty tricky if you do not have some good design instincts and usually need a larger scale model to be effective and reasonably priced. There are many different ways to approach the designs as well. There are several RC people on the list, including myself, that can give tips and I personally have animated and lighted many models over the years, including a rotating Babylon 5 Space station, a lighted 1/350 Ticonderoga hangar, operating engines on a B-29(real cool!), a lighted starship Enterprise with rotating engine lights(cooler) and a lighted Saturn 5 launch tower to name a few. I usually scrounge around in surplus stores for old motors and gear boxes, but I have recently developed a liking for micro servos as they are small, quiet and come with a nice gear box. If you don't get any better offers, send me a note with the model you want to animate and maybe I can walk you through some of it. Darren Scannell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: USS Washington The admiral was John Wilcox, the commander of Task Force 99 and he was washed overboard in heavy seas. There is a more detailed description of the incident and Wilcox himself in Ivan Musicant's 'Battleship at War'. Eugene -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: 1:700 subs >> Tom Dougherty! Maybe a quite stupid question: These waterline JAG subs, there are really no full hull option? << I was given the JAG subs for a review; to the best of my knowledge, they are avialble only in waterline kits. If you desire 1:700 scale full hull submarines, may I strongly recommend those made by Ralph Ratcliffe (of the SubCommittee; I am a member also, in the interest of "full disclosure"). Ralph's 1:700 resin subs are full hull; very delicate and highly accurate scribing, and scale out in all dimensions right on the button. Ralph makes a Sturgeon (not much to assemble here, just add the propeller and a good paint job), an early (Flight two) Los Angeles with fairwater planes and VLS tubes scribed into the hull, a late (688I) Los Angeles, with bow planes, ring propeller, anhedrals with countermeasure tubes and VLS tubes scribed in (the LAs come with various propeller and sail variants). He also makes a Seawolf (SSN-21) with pump jet (again, just add the pumpjet and paint). He also makes a beautiful Lafayette class SSBN, complete wiyth tiny Poseidon and Trident C4 missiles. I am building the four SSNs up on an oak base at present for the Warship's page. Prices are $15 for the Sturgeon; $20 for the rest, shipping $3. Let me know if you are interested, I will pass along Ralph's address. Best regards, Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: Eastern Fleet The British Eastern Fleet as of 1 April 1942 was HERMES, FORMIDABLE, INDOMITABLE, WARSPITE, RAMILLIES, REVENGE, RESOLUTION, ROYAL SOVEREIGN, DORSETSHIRE, CORNWALL, five light cruisers and sixteen destroyers. The purpose was to defend against the Japanese carrier striking force entering the Indian Ocean. After the loss of HERMES, DORSETSHIRE and CORNWALL, and the air strikes on Ceylon, the Eastern Fleet retreated to the east coast of Africa. Meantime, a smaller Japanese force built around the CV RYUJO and some cruisers was attacking British merchant ships along the Indian coast. The British CVs did not engage the enemy during this operation. Eugene -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Illustrious V Essex Hi Yohan The casualty figures were for Illustrious after she took 7 bombs and 5 near misses. Really they speak for themselves. The effectiveness of the design is shown in the lower casualty figue and Friedman's claims don't come into it (sorry). Sommerville was actually looking for an engagement in bad weather or at night where he could have walloped the Japanese fleet. He had a healthy respect for the abilities of the IJN air crews. Hi Jeffrey Really this demonstrates my point and suggests questionable ammuntion practice by the USN (which I for one don't believe). OK then this may be possible as I do recall a USN carrier which caught fire off Vietnam (Forrestal?) due to poor ammunition stowage and handling methods (we don't learn from history) but to be honest I had thought that the USN was far more competent than that. But even if this was the case it demonstrates the lack of protection in the design. Note to everyone - this is the only time I abandon my relativist position (each navy designs ships for its own particular circumstances) and actually say that one ship was better than another. As to skill and abilities of the respective navies - thats a different matter. Re German range finders - when it really mattered they were not as good as the RN. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Bretagne Hi All In 1936 Bretagne received 4 x quadruple Hotchkiss mounts which were still in situ in 1940. Does anyone have any information on their location? Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Whatever Hi Keith You only had .5's? That's a bit uncommitted, isn't it? Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: USS Washington Hi Ron Many thanks for the reference, the site you listed answered my question perfectly Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Norman Alfred Sells Subject: LOL's cry for Help LOL Suggest that you subscribe to the monthly magazine called "MODEL BOATS" a UK based periodical that features all types of ship modeling especially radio controlled detailed models both naval and civilian. There you will find details of suppliers of the specific equipment that you may need, namely servo's, motors, running gear including speed controllers and propellors as well as minature lighting units etc. An excellant magazine which also features many photo's of various countries naval ships in close view as well as some extremly detailed models. This will give you an idea of what can be achieved. Sugest you contact...... subs@nexusonline.com for subscription enquiries ModelBoats@csi.com for general enquiries Good Luck Norman of Tenterden UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: CapnAgee@aol.com Subject: Re: BB-62 antifouling color Contact Lee at Scale Shipyard for info on USS New Jersey bottom paint - he worked on her (1 to 1 scale) at Long Beach and has painted his 1/96 BB-62 in the proper red. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: A Arcs Hi Norm 'A' Arcs is an RN term for when a warship is able to bring all its main armament to bear on its target. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: BPF Hi Chris: I'm not sure where you got the 'Spruance asked the BPF to attack Formosa' from. I would suggest reading pages 128-132 of John Winton's 'The Forgotten Fleet'. Eugene -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: Jowfx@cs.com Subject: Re: USS Washington The Admiral who went overboard was RADM Wilcox. The 'mysterious circumstances', if I remember correctly, was that it wasn't determined if he fell or jumped. From what I remember, he was seen in the water, but no one saw him go over the side. Also they couldn't figure out who it was in the water for awhile because when they did the muster, every crew member was accounted for. It was when they were going to report this to the Admiral that they realized that he was the one missing. John Fox -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: pugs99@worldnet.att.net Subject: Hull Numbers & Stern Names Hi All, I am looking for some info as to whether or not the battleships of the USN wore hull numbers in late 1941 and at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack. Also, has anyone tried rendering hull names decals in 1/700 scale? It seems that a good printer and software will get the font pretty small, but does anyone know if this might still be out of scale? Say, font size 2 or 1? Any help is appreciated as i am thinking of trying "homemade" decals on a laser printer. Anyone else had success with this? John Impenna -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: "Arthur" Subject: Re: German range finders Mike said: >> I heard that the Japanese and Germans had among the best optical rangefinders (as the Hood and POW found out), which gives them an advantage... << >> I must agree that the germans have extreme excellent rangefinders. We should see the following examples: The Graf Spee's hit's the Exeter on her third salvo, Prinz Euguen hit's Hood on her fisrt salvo (I believe that it was this what happen but it wasn't this shot that have sunk the Hood), Scharhorst hit's the Glorious at first salvo too. Unless that this were lucky shots all this ship's fired at extreme ranges and hit the targets almost immediately. It must be certain that the rangefinders were quite good. << Hi all, Maybe that is why the Brits bought the wreck of the Graf Spee three days after she was scuttled for 16 K and then proceeded to take two weeks in removing everything topside in the gunnery department and put it under the microscope, later passing on anything relevant to the USN. Arthur -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: "Roger/Sharon Torgeson" Subject: USS Washington Chris Langtree wanted to know who the Admiral was, and what was the mystery. Having my copy of the book Battleship at War, The Epic Story of the USS Washington on my computer desk when I read his request it was easy to find some of the answers. The Admiral was John W. Wilcox, the mystery is, and I quote from the book " There was all sorts of conjectures as to whether he jumped, was pushed or was washed over". Roger Torgeson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 30) From: DILIANE@aol.com Subject: 1/72 Iowa turret project It's time to seek other help than my shrink. I have this grandiose project in mind, and seem to be at a loss for reference material. I want to try to make a 1/72 scale 16" turret from an Iowa class. I would like to make this able to open up, and have the lower section visible. I received excellent service from The Floating Drydock (thanks again). However all they have available is the one page drawing. I have ordered a copy of the Iowa class bb's, design, weapons and equipment. Any other avenues I should explore? There is not a real big rush, as I am still building up my courage. Jim Campbell Chippewa Falls, WI Hi John, IIRC, there was an article in Windsock International, which had a 1/72 Sopwith Baby mounted on a turret. It was a WW1 BB, not an Iowa, but you may get some ideas from it. Regards, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 31) From: Lawrence Tam Subject: Don't know what happened Hello, I am sorry about the repost of my question about the USS Indianapolis; but I think the message must have bounced or something because I didn't resent it again. Sorry for the inconvience. Lawrence Tam -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 32) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Admiral Overboard Chris... First off, read Ivan Musicant's "Battleship at War: The epic story of the USS Washington" for a good accounting of the story. RADM John W. Wilcox, Commander Battleships Atlantic Fleet fell overboard in the atlantic in route to Scapa on 27 Mar 42. The offical findings of the board determined this was an accident. However, some observers reported they believed he jumped rather than fell overboard, thus the rumors flew. However, the ship was in heavy seas at the time of the incident which made it hard to determine if it was an accident or a premediated action. Dasvidanya! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org http://www.onelist.com/community/iscandar-66 http://www.onelist.com/community/USS_Oriskany -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 33) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: French CVLs off Indochina Per Mersky and Polmar's The Naval Air War in Vietnam, when first deployed in '51 the La Fayette operated F6Fs and SB2Cs. This was the same type of air group the Arromanches also operated. A caption below a photo of the La Fayette in '55 states "deck loaded with F4U Corsairs" but no mention of Helldivers. Dasvidanya! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org http://www.onelist.com/community/iscandar-66 http://www.onelist.com/community/USS_Oriskany -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 34) From: Federalism@aol.com Subject: HMS Vanguard I remember building a large scale HMS Vanguard in the 70's. I thought it was hasegawa. where is this kit now? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 35) From: Rob Mackie Subject: Re: Iron Shipwrong Steve Wiper's Iron "Shipwrong" posting is highly objectionable and has no place on SMML. It is a thin-skinned and gratuitous smear that says more about the poster than it does about Iron Shipwright. Were it not for Iron Shipwright, there would be damned few new 1:350 scale patterns at all. In the past year they have issued far more 350 scale kits than all other resin casters combined. Are they perfect? No. Are they very good? yes. Are anybody's perfect? No. And it bears mentioning that these are new patterns, not re-issued kits from years past. I see many kits from all manufacturers. Everyone's quality has improved dramatically over the past two years, IS among them. They have nothing for which to apologize and have many satisfied customers. The marketplace likes and accepts their products, and with good reason. They (Ted Paris and Jon Warneke) are fierce, relentless competitors;and their future release list is breathtaking. Responding to their products with flames and innuendo may make the poster feel good, but it will do nothing to defeat them in the marketplace. Only more and better 350 scale releases from other producers will do that. Rob Mackie Warship Editor and Webmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 36) From: Derek Wakefield Subject: Most Accurate Being a newbie, I haven't seen first hand all the offerings available by all the various resin ship companies. However, I must say that I was offended by Steve Wiper's commentary in the last volume of SMML in response to Jon Warneke's new destroyer kit. Tom D's commentary on JAGs sub kits struck me as being rather harsh, but I accepted it as a *consumer* critique. I've said similar things myself about commerical injection kits here. Comparatively, Steve's post was a blantant flame from a competing manufacturer which IMHO showed bad judgement and a lack of maturity. I didn't join this list to read competing manufacturers slam/flame one another. I consider you all to be professionals in your trade, and I value the service you provide to the ship modeling community by providing kits the injection modeling industry wouldn't even think of marketing. OTOH, IMO, professionals shouldn't lower themselves to the level of striking back with cynical comments about the quality of a competetor's product. Jon's commentary about "most accurate" might've come across as being a bit arrogant, but I didn't see it as being offensive enough to rate such a response. If I was interested in a kit of the Ward (which BTW I'm not), I would've contacted both Steve and Jon privately to ask questions about and discuss the specifics of their kits. IMO, the products should stand for themselves on their own merits without the competetor flaming the other person. Personally, I would've rather seen a post expanding the virtures of the CW kit. Advertising in that way is good business, and helps me, the customer, get a better idea of the products offered. I'm sure both CW and ISW put out a quality product. Each company's reputation speaks for itself. I have bought a kit from ISW, and (in spite of this escapade) plan to purchase kits from CW. However, for the sake of civility here on the list, _please_ let the customers be the one to decide for themselves which kit is the best for them based on their own personal tastes and preferences. Thank you for your time. Dasvidanya! _|_o_|_ Derek "Tiger" (/\)akefield /---(.](o)[.)---\ iscandar@chatter.com o oo O oo o http://www.iscandar-66.org http://www.onelist.com/community/iscandar-66 http://www.onelist.com/community/USS_Oriskany -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: CokerRE@aol.com Subject: FS I have the following items for sale: Royal Navy Books Archibald, The Metal Fighting Ship in the Royal Navy $35.00 Coronation Review 1937 souvenir pamphlet with photos $20.00 Deane, Doctrine of Naval Architecture (sail, reprint) $35.00 Harding, Grey Ghost, RMS Queen Mary in WWII $20.00 Lambert, HMS Warrior 1859 (Anatomy of ship) $25.00 Lavery, The Arming & Fitting of English Ships (sail) $35.00 Lynch, Canada's Flowers 1939-45 $15.00 MacGregor, Merchant Sailing Ships, Vol. I & II $20.00 each The Tea Clippers 1972 $20.00 Mattingly, the Armada 1987 (paper) $7.00 McKay, the 100-gun ship Victory (Anatomy of Ship) $25.00 Elliott, Maritime Heritage 1981, UK museums $15.00 The Bassett-Lowke Story (UK model building firm) $35.00 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Knox class model and detail set >> AFV Club put out an injected 1/700 USS Knox a few years ago. I believe it's still in production. IIRC, it met with favourable reviews as well. << Flagship Models produces a very nice full detail set for the AFV Club Knox class model as well. Go to my web site to see the set. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume