Subject: SMML VOL 921 Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 00:03:36 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Color schemes 2: Hein mats 3: 1:200 P/E railing 4: Re: liberty ship - bluejacket 5: Removing Photoetch 6: Just lazy 7: Commander Series/IronShipwright Series 8: Re: Photos of Cassin Young 9: Re: Removing PE 10: Re: Arizona (not again!) 11: Re: PBR photos 12: Re: PBRs 13: Re: Arizona (not again!) 14: Victorian Warships 15: scratch building 16: Re: Removing Superglued Photoetch 17: E-Bay - Why Here? 18: "Boomer" 19: USS New Jersey World War 2 Cruise Book 20: Re: Who (What) Sank Prince of Wales? 21: Re: Picture of Valley Forge (CV-45) 22: Re: french contre-torpilleur 23: Re: Foxtrot, Etc., Re: Mea Culpa, Re: Brain Fart 24: PBR Information 25: Re: Parts Favor 26: Re: Removing Superglued Photoetch 27: square fletchers - name some ships? 28: Tamiya's 1/700 Indianapolis at Shizuoka -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SMMLcon Infomation & posts 1: Thoughts on future SMMLcons 2: SMML Con 2001 SF Bay -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: NEW brass for 1/700 Atlanta Class Cruiser's 2: PLASTIC SHIP MODELER 22 3: Book for sale 4: Re: Viking Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Robert J. Bartolacci" Subject: Re: Color schemes >> I have been following, with great interest, the discussion on color schemes and the importance of scale effect. I think we tend to get too wrapped up in getting exactly the right shade of color for a particular ship particularly if depicted in wartime. We must remember that colors used were generally what was available and for non-camoflage areas the priority was protection against rust. When a ship has been at sea for a short time the pristine paintwork applied in drydock will have faded from the effects of salt water and sun, rust streaks will be showing, and, even if paint was readily available, the right conditions for repainting simply did not exist. I knew a modular who obtained a paint sample from a visiting warship for the model he was building of that ship and his dismay when he realized his completed masterpiece did not look like the real thing at all. We must also bear in mind that the prototype is seen in the open, on a very reflective surface and against a sky background. A model, particularly a static display model, is usually seen indoors under artificial light (probably fluorescent) and will have quite a different appearance. Certainly scaling down the color will help, the smaller the scale the more scaling down, or lightening, is required. In the end it is the modeller's eyes that must judge, get as close as you can, yes, but not to the point of obsession. << Hi Just wanted to contribute my two cents worth. I was in the Navy for six years and aboard many different destroyers, tenders, and frigates in the '70s. When painting it was possible to open three or more 5 gallon cans of Haze Grey, thoroughly stir them up, and get as many different shades as there were cans. This although they had the same FS number and lot number. When painting large areas of the ship they often mixed these together to get a uniform color for large areas for appearance, sometimes not. The point I am making agrees with Michael's, get it as close as you can but don't get carried away trying to attain the "perfect" color, as there was no such thing in reality. BTW Our gunners mates would mix a quart of gloss varnish to five gallons of haze grey when getting ready to paint the 5" 54 mounts - this came out as a glossy haze grey finish that both looked good and lasted much longer before repainting ! Happy Modeling :-) Bob Bartolacci -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "J. London" Subject: Hein mats Can anyone tell me anything about the Hein mat installation that was fitted to La Galissonnière? I understand that this was a mat that was fed out of a wide slot in the stern with the idea that floatplanes could taxi up onto it for recovery with the ship under way. The only photo I have seen showing this slot on La Galissonnière was in 1938 Jane's and there is a crane at the stern with rails leading forward to the hangar. Questions: Was the method ever proved? Did others in this class, or in fact any other warship, carry this installation? I would imagine that it would have been extremely difficult to make a recovery with any sort of wake. Michael London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Douglas Bauer Subject: 1:200 P/E railing Does anyone besides GMM produce good quality P/E brass railing and ladders in 1:200 scale? Doug Bauer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: liberty ship - bluejacket >> Does anyone know of any local (ie Australian) stockists/hobby shops who stock or source Blue Jacket kits? << Just send Lisa at BJ an email and she can tell you if there are any dealers in Oz. The URL is: www.bluejacketinc.com Al Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: JVT7532@aol.com Subject: Removing Photoetch >> I purchased a partially built model that had photoetch added incorrectly. Is it possible to remove the photoetch chemically? What methods has anybody used short of ripping it off and trashing the photoetch? << Ralph, IIRC acetone will dissolve superglue, just be sure to use it in a very well ventilated area and wear a mask and gloves. You can still buy this in a good hardware store, I bought a quart can last week at home depot for $1.99. Use a fine tipped paint brush to apply it directly onto the attached area and let it work, It may take a few applications but it will dissolve the glue. Best regards, Jon Phila., PA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Just lazy >> Whilst I concur that buying a conversion kit might speed up the building process, I wonder whether it's necessarily a saving of time and aggravation. << I guess I'm a product of the '90s. I want instant gratification with no more work than necessary. Just lazy I guess. Plus I'm a rotten scratchbuilder. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Ross Bruce-QBR000 Subject: Commander Series/IronShipwright Series In a post yesterday Kurt Van Dahm praised Ted Paris for his customer service. I recently ordered a kit from him and had the pleasure to spend a few minutes talking with him on the phone about the model and the project that it fits into. Ted was pleasant and very helpful. Well when the kit arrived there was an extra little goodie thrown in. With service like this if it's Ted's intent to impress me as a customer he has achieved that goal completely! I want to thank Ted publicly for his efforts to provide us with these great kits and for his efforts to support us as modelers. I would give my recommendation of the Commander Series Models/Iron Shipwright kits without hesitation. Bruce Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Photos of Cassin Young >> PS I have a stack of shots of Jeremiah Brown, and also of USS Cassin Young (fletcher class) from Boston. << Not to belittle Ian, but you can download photos of the Cassin Young on the Warship site. There's a LOT of photo walkarounds on that site of many classes of ships. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Removing PE One of the superglue manufacturers--Pacer--makes "Z-7 Debonder", a liquid debonding agent. I've used it and it works (even on glued-together fingers--and no, don't ask!!). Try getting that at your local hobby shop, or having them order it for you. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "John Snyder" Subject: Re: Arizona (not again!) Well, as regards the color of the vertical surfaces, all the available evidence indicates that she was in Measure 1, Dark Gray 5-D with Light Gray 5-L fighting tops (above the top of her stack). According to Ships-2 instructions, her metal decks would have been painted Dark Gray 5-D. The discussion about the possibility of the Battle Line having been painted in Navy Blue 5-N revolved around some color photos that appeared to show CALIFORNIA and NEVADA in that color. To date I have not seen these photos. I DID spend several days in January at the National Archives, reading the deck logs and war diaries for both ships to see if there was any mention of them having been painted in Navy Blue prior to the attack. There was not. However, NEVADA's war diary did contain an entry from February or March 1942 (I don't have my notes at hand) after she had been refloated, drydocked and repaired, that she was being repainted in "War Blue." This would seem to indicate that she had not been wearing blue prior to that time. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys http://www.shipcamouflage.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: PBR photos I came in on this in the middle, so this may be a repeat. If someone is looking for photos of PBRs (either MK), there are several useful sources: Croisat, Victor. The Brown Water Navy. New York: Sterling Publishing Co., Inc. 1984 Cutler, Thomas. Brown Water, Black Berets. Annapolis: USNIP. 1988 Mesko, Jim. Riverine. Carrollton, Tx: Squadron/Signal Publications. 1985, There are a number of videos available from various outlets that cover the PBR, including one titled River Rats. Finally, the Gamewarden Association is made up of former PBR types and, I think, they have a web site. Al Ros -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: PBRs There are a number of PBRs being preserved. There is a MK2 somewhere in New Jersey at a memorial (can't remember where, offhand, but they do have a web site) and another MK2 at Patriot's Point in Charleston, SC. Al Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Re: Arizona (not again!) >> Yes, again!;-> A while ago there was a discussion on this list about the color of Arizona at Pearl Harbor. The choices, as I recall, were navy blue or dark gray. Unfortunately, the discussion sort of trailed off with no conclusion. More recently, there was some talk about the deck color. The consensus there seemed to be that the wood deck was left wood colored. This leads me to two questions: 1. Do we have any better idea of the color of the vertical surfaces than we did before? 2. Given that the teak decks were unpainted, what color were the metal decks? Thanks for your input everyone, and I'm sorry if I'm opening any old wounds! << I have in my possession a photo taken in Jan. 1942, showing the Arizona in her final resting place, and one can clearly see the paint on the main mast and the after turrets is indeed Navy Blue. The upper works were probably painted Light Gray. After studying the aerial photos after the attack, some of the decks are light, and some dark. I think the dark ones are wet, making them dark, so the wood portions would have been natural teak, and the steel decks were painted a Deck Blue, slightly blacker than the Navy Blue. Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "John Rule" Subject: Victorian Warships I wish to thank everyone who replied to my request regarding sources for drawings for RN warships in the period between Warrior and Dreadnought. I have a copy of R A Burt's "British Battleships 1889-1904" which incidentally is an excellent work. Unfortunately the drawings which appear excellent do not have a scale on them. Also there are sections shown but no reference on the plan or profile where the sections are located. I also have the drawings of the Majestics and the Royal Sovereign Class which were published in Warship Magazine. What I was wondering was whether people like R.A. Burt and John Roberts publish their drawings. I realise that the Maritime Museum at Greenwich have oodles of plans but, in keeping with other repositories of archival material in the UK they are charging exorbitantly for supply and postage, thus deterring anyone interested in research. I would rather reimburse someone who has already transposed plans from the Maritime Museum, than pay the museum and have to redo the drawing again for my own use. Thanks again to all John Rule -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: scratch building In Vol 920, Shane Weier asks, "Or am I the only one here fool enough to scratchbuild a model when there are two perfectly fine kits of the same subject available?" For what it's worth, Shane, you are not alone. Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER http://www.wman.com/~khgold/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: Re: Removing Superglued Photoetch Shane's advice is correct... as far as it goes. He conveniently neglected to mention that his method guarantees that the section of PE that comes loose will be the one section you attached perfectly, not the one that's a bit crooked. So, what's wrong with simply using CA debonder, which is likely available where you bought your super glue? You just have to be careful about the application of the stuff. Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER http://www.wman.com/~khgold/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Ray S. Katzaman" Subject: E-Bay - Why Here? For a time I thought that SMML was a haven to get away from the E-Bay onslaught on the other newsgroups, but slowly, it is infiltrating SMML and eventually, a large percentage of the posts will be for E-Bay items. I understand that you have to get rid of whatever, and E-Bay is a conduit to make some money. But I ask, Why Here? If this is a forum for the interchange of ideas, tips 'n techniques, and expertise, Why Here? If you agree that E-Bay should not be a part of SMML, let it be known. If you think it should, then let the flames begin. Respecfully, Ray Hi Ray, Ebay posts are welcome here for the same reason that traders are allowed to tout their wares on SMML, it's all part of what SMML is. Are you suggesting that no-one be allowed to post any For Sale items?? Now while I'm personally not too fussed on Ebay posts myself, others use it to get rid of kits & depending on the auction may get more than they thought they would. I would like to hope that ebay postings are kept to the level they are now, but I can envision that some individual SMMLs may have a lot of in them. In which case I advocate the use of the scroll bar to whiz past them. Regards, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: zwood@webtv.net (Zack Wood) Subject: "Boomer" anybody know where I can get the old skywave scramble set -or even just the U.S. nuclear sub from the set, thanks Zachary N. Wood -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: courtney regan Subject: USS New Jersey World War 2 Cruise Book While looking throughout the usual cruise books on eBay, just saw a interesting cruise book of the USS NEW JERSEY BB-62 that was printed up after the war. I know that this would make a good reference for those who need material for building the New Jersey as she looked like during the War. Haven't made up my mind if I'll bid, as my grandfather was on the ship during the war, but lost his cruise book that he got. Well here is the auction address for any of those who are interested: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=340304502 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Allan and Crystal Plumb Subject: Re: Who (What) Sank Prince of Wales? >> REPLY TO #16: CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG. I THINK THE PRINCE OF WALES AND REPULSE WERE SUNK BY "NELL" TORPEDO PLANES, NOT "BETTY'S". << The aircraft involved were: -- 9 Nell recon, 17 Nell torpedo aircraft, 9 Nell bombers of Genzan group -- 26 Betty torpedo aircraft of Kanoya group -- 25 Nell bombers and 8 Nell torpedo aircraft of Mohoro group The first and lethal torpedoes were from the Genzan group Nells. The second batch were from the Kanoya group Bettys. The Mohoro group then got one bomb hit and several near misses. I'd say that both types get some credit for PoW. (Source: "Battleship - The Loss of the Prince and Wales and the Repulse", by Martin Middlebrook and Patrick Mahoney) Allan Plumb -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: Picture of Valley Forge (CV-45) I knew I had it somewhere, but didn't find it in time to include the info with my last post on Valley Forge. Page 326 of Gareth Pawlowski's 'Flattops & Fledglings' has a photo of Vally Forge with CVG-5 embarked. Its not the best printed photo in the world, but you can see some covered objects in the starboard quarter 20-mm tubs. You can see F9Fs, ADs and F4Us spotted aft on the flight deck and an F9F on the port catapult. Eugene -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "feed" Subject: Re: french contre-torpilleur Please i beg you don't do it in that horrendus 1/700 scale. Thank you FEED -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Chuck Messer Subject: Re: Foxtrot, Etc., Re: Mea Culpa, Re: Brain Fart Excuse me. Sorry. Really. The web site I gave should be warships1.com, not warship1.com. Damn middle aged memory. Darned thing's on the blink again. Carn sarn it! Dag Nabit! :^) Chuck P.S. I sent this yesterday. Guess I didn't go through. Brain is in the shop. (:^) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: PBR Information For anyone researching the Vietnam Brown Water Navy, and the River Patrol Boats in particular, another potential resource is the PBR Forces Veterans Association website, at www.pbr-fva.org (listed in "Fine Scale Modeler" magazine, February 2000 issue). Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: eddp Subject: Re: Parts Favor >> I'm working up for a conversion of the 1/350 Fletcher DD to a square bridge late war DD << >> Chris, Go to my web site, and look up the USN Fittings list and you will find a virtual cornucopia of parts available for sale. Thanks, Steve - www.classicwarships.simplenet.com << Chris and Steve, I'm sure there are others on this list with far more knowledge of this subject than I, but I must disagree with the above statement. Cornucopia were only mounted on round-bridge Fletchers. The greater number of AA guns fitted to the later square-bridges did not leave enough topweight allowance for the mounting of the cornucopia. In fact, during late-war AA refits, many round-bridge Fletchers landed either their port or starboard cornucopia in order to fit more 20mm. In any event, these would have been "Real" cornucopia, as the computerized Virtual Cornucopia technology was not introduced until the Spruance class. Thank you for your kind attention, Edd Pflum Westmont, IL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: mechboy@juno.com Subject: Re: Removing Superglued Photoetch >> Hi Ralph, IIRC, freezing the model, will make the superglue very fragile. Apart from that the only other advice, is to work on the kit, the PE's bound to come adrift then ;-)). Happens to me all the time :-(. Shane << If you are gonna freeze it, might i suggest a can of electronics duster turned upside down, poor man's alternative to liquid nitrogen. Beats sticking the thing in the freezer. Hoi mechboy@juno.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: "Ian Wrenford" Subject: square fletchers - name some ships? Hi all, from a relative shipping ignoramus (but keen to learn) While there's a debate going on about square bridged fletchers. Could someone give me some examples of names of of the square fletchers? Have bought the 1:350 kit, have lots of shots of the USS Cassin Young - and I think this qualifies as a square bridge fletcher. thanks, Ian -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: "Mike Taylor" Subject: Tamiya's 1/700 Indianapolis at Shizuoka Here's an opinion of a friend that was there and works for another asian plastic ship Co.: Shizuoka was very busy. I saw USS Indianapolis of TAMIYA at Shizuoka Hobby Show. Although it was not bad ,it is not even wonderfully good. I think that TAMIYA produced it in hurries. Needless to say that was trial production yet. Mike Taylor/Modelguy(2) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SMMLcon Infomation & posts -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Shane Subject: Thoughts on future SMMLcons Hi gang, After reading all the great reports from SMMLcon1 & then looking at what seems to be a bit of a "mess" in regards to where the next one will be held, I thought I'd chime in with some considered thoughts on the matter. Firstly, there is no fixed rule on how far apart the SMMLcons should be. So, if someone wanted to run one in two months or two years there's no restriction, esp when you consider that there's close to 1100 international SMML subcribers. There is also nothing to stop it being held in a non-english speaking country with non english speakers. Plus you could hold them concurrently in different countries, with an internet chat set up between them for example. Then there's the matter of format: well AFAIC they can be as informal or formal as you like. If you wish to hold seminars, model displays/competitions, have traders or just gather to drink copious amounts & spin tales, well there's nothing to stop you. The main aim of ANY SMMLcon should be to have fun first & foremost. Now we come to the sticky point of timing. My thought is to find a date that suits the organisers. If you start trying to fit around the other events in the modelling calendar, you'll go crazy ;-). By all means take them into account, but don't let them rule when you want to hold it. If it clashes, so be it. I have written the above in light of some posts that have gone before & also possibly to help clear up any confusion. It is NOT meant to detract from Duane's or anyone else's intent to hold a SMMLcon, but hopefully to forestall any possible conflict & to encourage anyone who would like to, to host a SMMLcon. Regards, Shane Jenkins SMML Listmaster -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Duane Fowler Subject: SMML Con 2001 SF Bay Hello, I would like to get together with all interested parties to start exploring the next SMML Conference in the San Francisco Bay Area. Interested paries should contact me off list at: mailto:dlfowler@uscg.net You don't have be officially interested in volunteering (John Snyder!) at this point. I would like to suggest a meeting on June 17th, venue to be determined. Best regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Tom & Carolyn Harrison" Subject: NEW brass for 1/700 Atlanta Class Cruiser's NEW brass for 1/700 Atlanta Class Cruiser's I an effort to reduce modeling cost (purchasing multiple sets of brass) we have developed and placed into production a new set designed specifically for the entire Atlanta Class, from Depth charge racks, rails, to SK-2 radar. Set #745 cost $10.00 and is available directly from us or Pacific Front Hobbies. If ordering directly from us indicate this SMML ad and I'll ship free. Watch our web site www.tomsmodelworks.com and or the SMML over the next couple of weeks for several more new sets. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: dhjonespsm@juno.com Subject: PLASTIC SHIP MODELER 22 NEWS!!!! PSM 22 is now in the mail. I announced two weeks ago that this issue was to be delivered from the printers at that time. Indeed they did deliver as promised - but the covers were totally screwed up. The cover art was printed in a black ink instead of the correct sepia color, and the back cover photos and inside ads were so dark one could scarcely tell what the subjects were. It looked terrible! This was totally unacceptable so the delivery was refused. I requested that they correct the problem. New covers were printed and the first issues of the corrected copies arrived on Saturday. I am happy to say they did fix all the problems and the issue now is up to the normal standard! About 350 were mailed out today (Tuesday) and the rest will be going out at the rate of about 200 every day this week until all will on their way by week's end. Daniel Jones -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Percy, John" Subject: Book for sale "The Worlds Great Battleships" by Robert Jackson This book takes a detailed look at the ships and historic naval battles from the time of the Iron Clads to Desert Storm -- a fitting tribute to the battleship's proud history. 100 photos. 144 pages. Cost: $20 - includes shipping to US and territories only. Payment to be by money order or cashiers check only. Contact at below email address if interested. John Percy mailto:jpercy@clariion.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Viking Models >> In regards to numerous inquiries from our customers regarding Viking Models, we have stopped doing business with this company because of major problems, not the least of which has been almost non-existent quality control and complete lack of customer service. Their phone number has been disconnected again, and we cannot even get ahold of them. You are advised to use great caution in purchasing this company's products. << I was sorry to hear Bill Gruner is having trouble with Viking Models. If it makes you feel any better Bill you're in good company. Because of the warning on my web site I have been hearing from a LOT of modelers who are having the same trouble you are (no quality control, phones disconnected, web site down, etc.). Everyone here knows of my problems with these creeps. Lets just hope they are finally on their last breath as a model company and won't screw anyone else the way they have so many others. If you're considering buying anything from these guys DON'T DO IT! Don't give on more dime to this company and we can all say "BYE BYE VIKING MODELS". Also, remember the names Dan Joplin and Jay Slaughter. They are the owners, so any new company they are involved in the future won't treat you any different. If this sound like I have an ax to grind with these guys, I DO! See my web site for the whole rotten story. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ "Yeah I want Cheesy Poofs" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://www.smml.org.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume