Subject: SMML VOL 1067 Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 21:59:13 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: New WSW Kit 2: First Ship 3: Yamato Book 4: USS Grunion (SS-216) camouflage 5: Counter-Rotating Props 6: Re: Japanese port-islanded carriers 7: First aircraft carrier 8: Re: New Jersey 9: Kombrig planning new modern Soviet models 10: What did you do in the war ... 11: Naval Warship Accident Reports 12: SS Oriana / First ship 13: Amphibious operation practices 14: Ranger, Task Force, IJN Carriers 15: Re: Das Boot 16: Air Force Sergeant Traces Bugle's History 17: Re: Japanese port-islanded carriers 18: Tips & Dad's War 19: need help for USS Milwaukee CL-5 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: International Maritime Modeling November 2000 Update -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Pletscher-Lenz-Schneider" Subject: New WSW Kit The new WSW kit of SMS BLUCHER is out now. Falk Pletscher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: AandMBlevins@gateway.net Subject: First Ship I too, fortunately, was in New York for the Fleet Review in the 1980's and for the Statue of Liberty celebration. The description of the USS Iowa coming up the river evoked fond memories for me, and I agreed completely with the description. The arrival of the Iowa was made even more memorable by the fact that my son, an OS3, was aboard. A fellow worker and I were the first people on board when the ship moored at the old Brooklyn Navy Yard pier. We received a personally conducted, and complete, tour of the Iowa and both were very impressed with the magnificent ship and its crew. Al Blevins -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Scott Cashel" Subject: Yamato Book Does anyone know where I can obtain a copy of Janusz Skulski's Battleship Yamato? It seems to be out of print and unavailable. If anyone would like to sell their copy or let me borrow one I would be most interested. Scott Cashel Arlington, Texas (USA) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Cataldo Torelli Subject: USS Grunion (SS-216) camouflage Hi SMMLiers, I'm looking for information on the camouflage and colours that carried the Gato class sub USS Grunion (SS-216) the summer of 1942, when she was lost. And photos. I only have found one on the net. Thanks, Cataldo Torelli Madrid, Spain -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Norman C. Samish" Subject: Counter-Rotating Props From: "denis keegan" >> . . . the later Seafires with the Griffon engine, which rotated in the opposite direction to the Merlin, DID have problems when Landing on and Taking off due to torque effects. They also had severe tyre wear problems and under full throttle would side step as they took off. This was solved by the introduction of Contra Rotating props. << Dennis, Thanks for the information. I'm aware of the torque effects of powerful engines - the P47, Mustang, Corsair, and others all had problems with this, but I didn't know they were as severe as you describe. Did the counter-rotating props introduce problems of their own, e.g. inefficiency, weight, unreliability, etc.? I wonder if any ships used counter-rotating props on concentric shafts? Thanks, Norm Samish -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Jonathan Parshall Subject: Re: Japanese port-islanded carriers >> The Akagi and Hiryu were built with their island structure nearly amidships on the port side. The purpose was to fit with the Japanese theory of operations, where the carriers would be paired in operational groups, so that the flight operations approach and circuit paths would not overlap. The idea was not a success. Part of the reason was the torque problems mentioned by others, but a big part was the air patterns caused by the hot stack gasses from the starboard-located horizontal stacks and the island structure itself creating disconcertingly turbulent conditions on the flight deck. The turbulence apparently magnified the torque considerations. << It should be noted that the Japanese built a 1/48-scale model of Akagi and tested it in a wind-tunnel before they decided on her port-island configuration, and the original test results from the tunnel indicated that such a configuration would lessen turbulence. But they were partly ambushed by a trend that caight a lot of people by surprise; aircraft getting larger and more powerful during the 1930's, and in turn requiring more room to take off and land. This in turn meant that the placement of Akagi's island relatively far astern created greater problems than with Soryu's configuration, whose island was proportionately further furward. >> When and if the Japanese would have rebuilt the two with starboard islands in time is something I cannot answer. Certainly the problem was recognized so that the Shokaku / Zuikaku pair were both given starboard islands. << Actually, as originally designed, Shokaku and Zuikaku's islands were mirror images of one another... I can't remember which one was going to get the port-side island, but one of them was going to have it over there. This design feature was amended fairly late in the design process; they may have even been on the ways. I don't have the info handy to hand. jon parshall- Imperial Japanese Navy Page http://www.combinedfleet.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Fkbrown90@aol.com Subject: First aircraft carrier (A ten-trumpet fanfare, please. No, make that eleven.) After reviewing the data from three diffferent sources, I am ready to submit the name of what is believed to be the first aircraft carrier. When originally posed, the query to SMMLers was not intended to be a "trick question", as some people may think. I had no intention of being "cute". Rather, it assumed the the most simple and generic definition of an aircraft carrrier as being a floating vessel whose sole purpose is to launch and retrieve aircraft, maintenance and servicing of aircraft being assumed. Therefore there were no specifics or restraints. Thus no restrictions were made such as powered or nonpowered, heavier-than-air or lighter-than-air, fixed-wing or rotary-wing, etc. Consequently, the name of the first aircraft, thus here broadly defined is (drum roll, please) the GEORGE WASHINGTON PARKE CUSTIS, a converted Union (Northern) Navy coal barge. In 1861 a large flat deck had been added to the barge for the sole purpose of launching and retreiving observation balloons (which are indeed classified as lighter--than-air craft) during the American Civil War. It was a joint civilian-army-navy operation. The principal balloonist was a civilian who had made some experimental observation ascents for the Union (Northern) Army. Later a balloon was attached to an armed steamship, the FANNY, and was transported rather easily (compared to moving the balloon, its crews and equipment overland) to several vantage points along a river. The success of this and other aquatic balloon reconnoiterings led to the development of the CUSTIS, whose only function was as a balloon tender. It had no propulsion of its own, neither sail or engine, and consequently had to be towed to its mission sites, often under Navy escort. It had no armament or guns. The FANNY, and later the tug ADRIATIC, were used as floating baloon bases, but that was not the sole purpose of these steamers. The principal astronauts were civilians, the equipment crews were army, and the barge was crewed, towed, and escorted by the navy. The Confederate (Southern) army was quick to adopt this idea, but lacking the neccessary facilities and equipment, they were not successful. Although the North led the way in developing what turned out to be Naval Aviation (Top Gun?) with the CUSTIS, the South led the way in development of Submarine Warfare (Bottom Gun?) with the C.S.S. HUNLEY. SMMLers submitted several candidates for recognition as the first aircraft carrier, both through SMML and directly to this writer. But by "press time" only one had gotten it right, identified only by his screen name GrafSpee34. Congratulations to you, sir. There are indeed many more details which have been omitted for brevity (brevity?). I can supply references to sources if any SMMLers want to correct, confirm, or contribute to the above. Any additional facts supplied by SMMLers will be welcomed and publicly acknowledged. Thanks for your interest and responses to the original question, and it is hoped that readers will find the answer to be enlightening. And a special thanks to the propieters of SMML for creating and maintaining a forum for this and the many other dicussions concerning crews, ships, and models. Franklyn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Tom Detweiler Subject: Re: New Jersey >> My other vivid recollection is when the battleship New Jersey made a port visit to NAS during the Vietnam War. << >> Hmm. That was my "first ship" too, at least as far as I recall. I just remember looking from the bow towards the two main turrets, and the crowds, the rest is rather foggy. << As an esteemed member of Uncle Sam's Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club at the time of the Big J's deployment in Vietnam, we often were in the same operational areas as she, doing Nighttime Gunfire Support for ground troops inland. Even at times when we were all sick to death of gunfire support, moving ammo and hearing/feeling dual 5" guns going off all the time (which is probably why I don't hear so well, now) we still were moved and awed when we could take a break up on the foc'sle and watch the New Jersey doing the same thing with her big guns-when they fired salvos inland, the entire sky lit up with the orange-white muzzle flash and the shock wave visibly moving across the surface of the brown gulf water until it shook our destroyer. The Big J was always deployed with other ships stationed well away to protect them from her shock waves and concussion. She was an unforgettable symphony of sight and sound, when she was angry. I would not want to ever have been on the receiving end of one of those salvos. Tom Detweiler, USS Higbee DD-806, USN 68-71 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Poutre, Joseph A" Subject: Kombrig planning new modern Soviet models Of interest to some, especially those in the recent discussion about models of Soviet ships. I clicked around the NNT website, and noticed that their Kombrig section has expanded considerably. It would appear they are working on more modern Soviet ships beyond the already announced Moskvas, including all four Kirov BCGNs, Slava, Kresta, Kynda, Sverdlov and Chapayev class cruisers and Kara, Kotlin, Kanin and Kilden DDs. The Kotlin and sisters are listed at euros 37.58, the others don't have prices listed yet. (Euros are about 1.17 to the US dollar as of today, for reference.) Along with what's already out there in plastic, I think that every modern Soviet surface combatant will be available, in one version or another, though not always of the best quality. (Aoshima Kiev - gakk! Turning one into the Gorshkov - super gakk!) In a word, FINALLY! Gonna get me a Frunze, and make me a Soviet SAG to go along with my New Jersey SAG. Joe Poutre -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Edward F Grune" Subject: What did you do in the war ... Hello SMMLies This isn't a story about my father, or grandfather. Its a story about my Organic Chemistry professor at High Point College in North Carolina. Dr Christopher W...... took his PhD from Leeds. During the war he worked at Imperial Chemical. He was a section leader. At the height of the invasion scare the section was called together. To prevent their capture and transfer of knowledge to the enemy, all were given suicide pills. Dr W was also given a pistol, with instuctions that if anyone refused to take their pill ... I learned more about the British chemical industry in WWII in that class than I did Organic Chemistry. Ed Mansfield, TX Ps: Dr W. was a wealthy man. He held the process patent on styrofoam. Remind me to tell you what I learned from him on the differences between cheating on your taxes and chiseling on your taxes. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "sell4853" Subject: Naval Warship Accident Reports Hi SMMiLers The following site is well worth a look, perhaps not for the information relating to modelling of such ships but it goes into detail of the many accidents (and incidents!) involving warships of various navies (mainly RN & USN) from 01/01/1945 through to 1990. Some of the USN incidents are well worth a study. Allow yourself plenty of time, there is more to this site than you may realise. Pass the Pussers! http://www.peacelink.it/webgate/armamenti/msg00252.html Norman Sells Cold and not quite so flooded Kent UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Dave Swindell Subject: SS Oriana / First ship Just had a look at IMM kit review of the Modelkraft SS Oriana, does anyone stock this in the UK, and how much is it? My interest? It was my first ship, Australian Cruising, cabin TD4 behind the Captain's cabin, G&T's in the lobby during Captians Cocktails on the way through to the shower! Dave Swindell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: LUCASNER@aol.com Subject: Amphibious operation practices I'm looking for information concerning amphibious operation practices/tactics. For example; what are the speed, sea state restrictions for modern well deck equipped amphibs when unloading LCACs/LCU/LVT etcetera? How long does it actually take to ballast down the stern and flood the well deck? I'm working on some game rules and would like to find a source of such specific information. Any other specifics would be great... Thanks, -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Mike C" Subject: Ranger, Task Force, IJN Carriers Hi Group, Re: Ranger. I have no plans to re-release the Ranger in the near future. It's an expensive, time-consuming pain-in-the-butt to cast and the previous molds are shot. I also have a number of other projects currently in the works, so it's a bit impractical for me at the moment. Maybe late next year. That may give me time to develope some brass for it as well. Sorry. Re: Task Force. As I recall, they did something interesting with the format to that film. The first half is B&W and the rest is in color, presumably because color film wasn't generally available to the fleet early in the war. The scripted scenes were shot to match the action scenes that were available. I believe the change occurred during the Battle of Midway in the chronology of the film. Re: IJN Carriers. If the carriers with the island on the left had a different landing pattern when operating with other carriers, did air groups on those carriers use that pattern for all operations or just with combined operations; or was this something that was only done during the early days of IJN aviation? Something like that could certainly screw up a pilot's concentration, especially if he's transferred to a carrier with a more common, starboard island. Mike Czibovic Corsair Armada Productions -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Timothy J. Barron" Subject: Re: Das Boot From: "Baumbach, Werner" >> As far as I remember, for the movie a detailed model of the boat was build, that was operated by hydraulics to simulate the movements. It is a fairly accurate model of the boat. But I think it was never operational or went to sea. << From: Ives100@aol.com >> No, they did not build an operational U-boat. A full size interior set that could be tilted, rolled and flooded was built, and fitted with a highly accurate rendition of U-boat instruments and fittings. They used German U-Boat veterans as consultants for the interior, and to train the actors to dive through the hatches. The conning tower was also built as an exterior set that could be doused with water and wind machines. Also built on top of a barge was a false Type VII U-boat hull, that was towed for exterior "full boat" shots, such as the shots in the U-boat pens and the departure and arrival from St. Nazaire. This same hull was subsequently << Well, I guess I may have read more into what a "full-sized seagoing replica" was. I don't remember what the DVD behind the scenes documentary said - I'll have to rewatch that. The following is from the liner notes: ".....The bulk of the $15 million budget was spent on constructing the U-boats.....He found the specifications for the original Type VII-C U-boat stored at the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry. The plans were then taken to the original builder of the subs, who was commissioned to build a full-sized, sea-going replica, their first such assignment since the war ended. Zehetbauer constructed a second full-sized model for interior filming. Three scale models were built for special effects....." Timothy J. Barron mailto:tjbarro@worldnet.att.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Bruce" Subject: Air Force Sergeant Traces Bugle's History OK now I just know the flags can be replaced aboard ships, of the line, US Navy ships that is, also you are all missing the point, about calls aboard ship's most all warships at one time or another, used the bugles to call to Battle stations, just like the other service branches, anyone going through bootcamp be that Navy, Marine, Army, can remember the Bugle enjoy the links and the history Bruce >> Military buglers have been communicating with troops and their families for centuries. Bugle calls told troops when to go to bed, when to wake up, when to eat, when to attack and when to retreat. There were stable calls, water calls, drill calls, sick calls and church calls on Sunday. Bugles were first used for signaling in America by the British army during the Revolutionary War. The sound of the bugle made it possible to convey commands over a great distance. The sound could usually be heard above the roar of battle. But tracing the history of military bugle calls isn't easy, according to Master Sgt. Jari Villanueva, a member of the U.S. Air Force Band. Villanueva, a brass player with the band, is the man who sounds "Taps" during funerals and at ceremonies at the Tomb of the Unknowns in Arlington (Va.) National Cemetery. His extensive research has made Villanueva one of the military's foremost authorities on bugle calls, and he likes to share his knowledge with others. When the weather isn't too cold, the Air Force sergeant and other bugle-playing history buffs from as far away as New Jersey pitch tents at Arlington National Cemetery. They lay out Civil War-era military gear on blankets, set up a table display of bugles, play bugle calls and talk to curious passers-by about the life of military buglers, particularly during the Civil War. The bugling enthusiasts represent the Confederate and Union infantry, cavalry and artillery. Decked out in Civil War-era uniforms, they reenact the past. "We do a live history of field musicians," said Villanueva. "Everybody brings their equipment, such as what a cavalry musician would have carried. An infantry musician would have carried his knapsack, blanket, rifle and sword." The group also displays the different types of bugles used during the Civil War. That's everything from large clarion bugles imported from France, to cavalry trumpets to a keyed bugle, which Villanueva said is a cross between a saxophone and a bugle. "The keyed bugle was an early attempt to have chromatic notes played on a bugle, which is a valveless instrument," he said. The bugler's reenactment is an outgrowth of an exhibit in the cemetery's visitors' center called, "Taps: The Bugle in History and Ceremony." The exhibit opened more than a year ago and will remain until September 2002. The bugle used at President John F. Kennedy's funeral is the centerpiece. Oliver Wilcox Norton (1839-1920), the 22- year-old bugler who played the first ever Taps, is also featured in the exhibit. "Taps," which has been sounded over soldiers' graves since 1862, is the most recognizable bugle call today, Villanueva said. Villanueva said the exhibit also features the spurs and duty sword of Union Maj. Gen. Daniel Butterfield (1829-1902), who is the supposed composer of the call. The artifacts are on loan to the cemetery from the Onieda County, N.Y. Historical Society. Villanueva said "Taps" is sounded more than 30 times a day at Arlington, and that's why cemetery officials are featuring the bugle exhibit and hosts the living history sessions. Buglers sound the poignant tune for funerals, wreath laying ceremonies at the Tomb of the Unknowns and memorial services, he said. Of all the military bugle calls, none is so easily recognized or more apt to render emotion than "Taps", Villanueva said. "The melody is both eloquent and haunting." << Related Site of Interest: U.S. Army Reserve Command "Bugle Calls" http://www.usarc.army.mil/84thDiv_1Bde/Infantry_BugleCalls.HTM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: James Corley Subject: Re: Japanese port-islanded carriers From: "Mark Shannon"  >> The Akagi and Hiryu were built with their island structure nearly amidships on the port side. The purpose was to fit with the Japanese theory of operations, where the carriers would be paired in operational groups, so that the flight operations approach and circuit paths would not overlap. The idea was not a success. Part of the reason was the torque problems mentioned by others, but a big part was the air patterns caused by the hot stack gasses from the starboard-located horizontal stacks and the island structure itself creating disconcertingly turbulent conditions on the flight deck. The turbulence apparently magnified the torque considerations. When and if the Japanese would have rebuilt the two with starboard islands in time is something I cannot answer. Certainly the problem was recognized so that the Shokaku / Zuikaku pair were both given starboard islands. << When Kaga & Akagi were modernized in 35 & 38, their stacks were changed considerably to reflect these lessons. Kaga had her two p/s deck edge stacks combined into one that vented to stbd near amidships, just aft of the island. Akagi had a similar reconstruction, venting to the same side, but just fwd and opposite the island, which was added in 38. The funnel redesign was to eliminate (hopefully) the exhaust burble that has plagued all ships but the CVNs. The USN learned this lesson at about the same time and elected to continue the tradition of the Lexington class with the high stack funnels. The weight and performance penalty on the ship outweighed the performance penalty assessed on the airwing as discovered in Ranger. The CVL/CVE problem could not be solved in a similar fashion due to cg considerations, so the deck edge stacks were acceptable. Our later stacks did try to at least vent the gasses upward out of the approach path, instead of the IJN ideology that had them jetted to the side before they rose into the level of the circuit. Neither design was definitely superior, as far as I can tell no direct comparison was ever performed. The port side island was an attempt at integrating the ships into the aforementioned carrier divisions. Might have worked better if the had also built engines on half their planes that went the other way! Of course, that would have just fouled up their supply train even more .... can't win 'em all! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: RhinoBones@aol.com Subject: Tips & Dad's War Today, as I was finishing up a bit of rigging on a Ukrainian copy of the Aurora, I drifted off to Tinkerland for a moment of solitude and concluded that there were two, very, very good tips that I have gleaned from the SMML which have served me well. I understate the importance . . . they have served me extremely well. Both are simple ideas and, in hindsight, were obvious ideas. I have no recollection of who wrote them into the SMML or who the original authors might be, therefore I will just write them as follows: 1) Temporary mounting stands. I prefer to build full hull models and for the first few ships I built I struggled with the physics of the rounded hull and keeping the work stationary while I butchered (built) other parts of the model. Obvious solution . . . mount the hull on a temporary set of pedestals and a big fat wooden base. Simple solution. Works good. Highly recommended. This technique should also work for the waterline crowd . . . would be much the same as the building boards that the card stock builders use. Either way, it provides a means to manipulate the model during construction without fingering the actual model. This helps. 2) Pastel (artist) chalks. What a great idea this is for adding weathering effects and texturing to a model. You can grind the chalks into dust for brushing or just use the stick (pencil or stick) to draw directly onto the ship. I have been using artist pastels, but I would think that a kid type (aren't we all kids) package of colored chalks would function just as well. Along with the water color paints washes, this is my preferred method of adding tone to a subject. Over the course of our individual experiences we have all found a tip or technique which is particularly helpful. Would like to hear the stories and techniques experienced by others. Regards, RhinoBones PS - As for the "What Did Dad Do During The War" thread . . . well, I'm a dad and I was in a war. Do I qualify as a "Dad" to write about a "Dad's" experience in the war? (My father also happens to be a surviving waist gunner from 50 missions in a B-17). I happen to be from the Nam era, but there are surely many others from Nam, from other wars, and from the multitude of conflicts which infect our world. Actually . . . I feel that any time you carry a weapon in anger, or in defense, you are mentally and physically in a state of war. Peace Keeping, Ireland, NATO, Bosnia and the Gulf . . . these, and many others, count. Regards, Again -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Drees Joe Subject: need help for USS Milwaukee CL-5 What is a good reference for the above? I have the 1/350 USS Detroit I would like to convert to the milwaukee. TIA.....Joe -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Felix Bustelo Subject: International Maritime Modeling November 2000 Update I am pleased to announce that the November 2000 update to International Maritime Modeling has been posted. This update is a ocean liner/merchant ship only update and I have had a lot of fun putting this update together. The November 2000 update to the site includes: Photos of Jason Brian Johnson's 1/350 and 1/570 scale Titanic Wreck models, Harold Lincoln's scratchbuilt 1/600 scale SA Vaal, TS McEwan and SS Sarnia, and Paddy Taylor's collection of liner and merchant ship models, including the very rare Airfix Southern Cross in the Gallery. Reviews of the Modelcraft 1/500 scale SS Oriana and the Revell 1/570 RMS Titanic in Quick Kit Reviews. Reviews of the White Ensign Models 1/600 scale RMS Queen Elizabeth/Queen Mary Detail set and 1/600 Merchant Ship Gravity Davit photoetch detail in Photoetch Reviews. A review of Gray Ghost - RMS Queen Mary at War and The Picture History of the Normandie in Book Reviews. Added pages for Academy Models and Minicraft Models to the Kit List Page. Updated the White Ensign Models and Tom's Modelworks pages to include new merchant/liner related photoetch details in the Photoetch List Page. Updates to the latest arrivals at Warship Books. Related updates to the Links page I hope that you enjoy this update. Regards, Felix Bustelo International Maritime Modeling URL: http://members.tripod.com/~Febus65/imm.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://www.smml.org.uk Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume