Subject: SMML VOL 2213 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 02:35:26 +1000 SMML is proudly sponsored by SANDLE http://sandlehobbies.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Ohka Kamikaze Model 2: First Purpose-Built Aircraft Carriers 3: IPMS Judging vs. R/C Static Judging 4: Re: RC ing CVN 75 5: Re: Model shops and Museums around Washington DC 6: Re: Aircraft Carriers 7: to be judged or to be JUDGED 8: Washington Naval Yard 9: RCing CVN carrier Enterprise 10: Okinawa Typhoons - Oct, 1945 11: Re: Indian Ship's Colours 12: Re: Semaphores 13: Re: first aircraft carrier 14: Re: Enterprise at Greenville 15: Re: Aircraft Carriers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: SCHNELLBOOT IN ACTION 2: Camouflage Vol !V ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "testolog" Subject: Re: Ohka Kamikaze Model >> Can you tell me where I can find the original HAWK model of the Ohka Kamikaze? << Hi Jim -- Keep searching in Ebay, otherwise try John F Green -- www.greenmodels.com He sells MIB collector models but also in other conditions for building, too. Lots of fun to scan through and see the box art for all the models we built when we were kids! I remember Hawk models being more affordable than Revell, Lindberg and others. Used to buy them at the Ben Franklin 5&10 Cent Stores for very little, 20 to 50 cents. Tom Detweiler in Grass Valley CA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Tony Mattson" Subject: First Purpose-Built Aircraft Carriers In Vol 2211, Franklyn wrote: >> The earliest American aircraft carriers were converted from hulls originally built for other purposes. Can anyone name the first American carrier designed from the very beginning to be an aircraft carrier? << Here's a swabbie's shot at the answer: The first true carrier designed to permit takeoffs and landings was the British ship HMS Argus. The conversion was completed in 1918. I believe that Argus was originally an Italian passenger liner so she surely had quite some variety in her career, and raises another puzzler about which navy ship or ships had the greatest number of complete 'purpose' conversions (for want of a better expression - sorry it's early morning in NZ and too bl***y cold for the language centre of my brain to start working properly!). The first U.S. carrier, the Langley, a converted collier, joined the US fleet in 1922, and in 1927 the Lexington and Saratoga were converted from battle cruisers. The first American aircraft carrier designed from keel to island to accommodate aircraft was the USS Ranger, authorized in 1929 and commissioned in 1934. USS Lexington and USS Saratoga, which preceeded the Ranger were of course originally designed as battle cruisers. However the British navy's HMS Hermes (1923) was the first ship in the world to be designed and built as an aircraft carrier. A few other Carrier "firsts' found whilst researching the subject - there must be plenty more out there!: The first aircraft to take off from a ship was a Curtiss Pusher land plane powered by a vertical four cylinder water cooled 50 hp Curtiss engine. Eugene Ely, was a Curtiss pilot and flew from an 83 foot wooden platform built over the ram bow of the cruiser USS Birmingham in Chesapeake Bay on 14 November 1910. The first "arrested landing on" and "take off from" a ship's deck was also piloted by Ely. On 18 January 1911 he successfully landed and took off from the armored cruiser USS Pennsylvania in San Francisco Bay. The first landing on a moving ship was completed by Lt Cdr Dunning in a Sopworth Pup on a flight deck built over the forward section of HMS Furious in 1917. She was modified in the latter stages of construction and completed in July 1917 with a single 18-inch gun aft and the aircraft launching platform forward. On completion the 18-inch gun was removed and the flight deck extended. On 19 July 1918, she launched the first real carrier-based air strike in which seven of her squadron of Sopworth Camels destroyed two enemy airships and their support facilities at Tondern, in northern Germany. Biggles would have been proud! Tony Mattson Editor- Mailship Scale Marine Modellers Inc. Auckland ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Ralph Nardone" Subject: IPMS Judging vs. R/C Static Judging Hello, all..... "Mastershipbldr" wrote: >> I am also pleased to hear that IPMS is changing there rules towards ship models, but that is not enough. I have just come back from a IPMS regional in Greenville, SC where I took a giant scale radio controlled model of the USS ENTERPRISE CV-6. She took third and from where I stand the judging was not fair. I will explain my feeling. First it is radio controlled and any one that knows about radio control knows that a working ship has to be built a little different. She took major hits because of the seam line in her flight deck, never mind that was where the flight deck comes apart to gain access to the hanger deck lights and the lower sections of the ship. Also she took major hits because of the screws in the flight deck. Never mind that they had been painted to match the color of the flight deck, and that they were there to hold the flight deck down. I find it a sad state of affairs when judges are not understanding when it come to a working model. << Having judged both IPMS contests and been a judge for the static portion of an R/C regatta, I can tell you that what one group will allow, the other will not. As an R/C judge, we take into account that the model is a working model, therefore visible screws, dings, overscale detail parts and the like tend to be given some degree of leeway. On a static display model, such things are graded accordingly. Remember, the main thrust of IPMS competition is the craftsmanship and attention to the basics of construction--seams eliminated, alignment correct, flawless finish. This pertains to EVERY model, no matter if it was assembled from a kit or carved from a bebenga tree--fit and finish are THE things an IPMS judge looks for.... Oh, another point--just because your model was the biggest in the room does not entitle you to an award. >> What's the deal here does IPMS think they are to good to be fair to working models and allowing for certain differences between a static display model and a working model? << It is not written into their competition rules. If you want the rules changed to allow the differences, join IPMS and petition the Competition Commitee to have the rules changed. IPMS doesn't think they are "better" than others or "too good to be fair to working models". The very concept of "working models" is somewhat foreign to IPMS. Of course, in 1983, Loren Perry's USS Vogelgesang won both the Judge's Grand Award and Most Popular Model at the IPMS/USA Nationals.... >> This ship was all scratch built form the ground up. I saw nothing there that took the skill, time or patience it took to build this ship. << Oh, I think I saw a USS Kidd at the show (yes, I was there) that had been converted from a Tamiya Fletcher that took quite a bit of work--the conversion was from scratch, including the square bridge, and the detailling was immaculate. The builder obviously put a lot of time and work into that model.... >> When I build this model I used nothing but a X-Acto knife a tri-square sand paper and files. Materials used were as follows. fiberglass, plastic, PVC sheets, brass, bronze, copper, alum. Stainless steel, steel, resin, wood and bondo. She took two years to build and has over 24,000 parts in her. The flight deck alone has 4,000 hand laid planks and 109 deck tie downs with 5200 holes all hand drilled. This ship took skill to build and that was not even concentered, and I find that to be unfair in the judging process. << Of that I'm sure--and the model was quite impressive. But from an IPMS static display model standpoint, the working features simply aren't given allowances.... >> So no IPMS needs to do a whole lot more in changing there rules to include working models. Until that happens I will never take another ship to a IPMS meet. << Well, you can't change the way IPMS governs their competitons if you aren't a member. You need to join, and get involved--until you do, your complaints are coming across as sour grapes...... >> I am not trying to take anything away from kit builders but lets face it scratch building is a whole different breed of animal and making it radio controlled is even more so. << Actually, you ARE taking away from the kit builders with your comments on "time, skill, and patience required". Converting that Fletcher probably took as much or more time as your R/C model. Just because the scale is smaller and most of the parts are pre-formed does not make it any easier--in some cases, it makes it more difficult. >> Nothing would make me happier than to take my next ship USS HORNET CV-8 in 1/96 scale to the next regional but i won't unless they make changes to include radio controlled ships. They are models also and should be treated fairly. << Your model was treated fairly--fairly according to the current IPMS Competition rules. I didn't judge at the show, but any IPMS judge would have cited the items you mention--visible screws, seams, etc., etc--and knowing who the judge was, your model was more than likely given a fair shake, but I'll let him comment on that if he should choose to do so. Just because your model "only" took a Third doesn't mean it wasn't a good model--that room was FULL of good models that didn't win squat. As I said, you want IPMS to change? Join IPMS and work to get those changes. Until then, your post comes across as yet another "I took a model to a show and it didn't win" complaint. R ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Don Macdonald" Subject: Re: RC ing CVN 75 Hey Ray. Nice to meet ya. OKI have done that many times on useing servos for speed controlls you right that idea works grate, On Carriers a person told me about 10 years A carrier would make a bad RC well I had to prove him wrong. I built my first carrier as a matter of a fact it was way out of scale and my first scratch built ship. Even the air craft wings was over the flight deck. Well later after I did that one I started seeing more RC carriers I wonder how that came about for I never did see any untill I got my carrer done ;-) Have to amit it look strange. Well I built it ran it then later made it into another one then later turn it in the Escort that is on our SMML board. That was at 4 ft long and that time it was in scale, Have to amit it made good learning tool / So far I have not done any of the small carrier kits in RC. Most of the carriers I have done is usely 4 ft and longer. The one I am working will be the first under my normal 4 footers, But you know I may use the servo set up I did not even think of that one. I will use it and let ever body know later on how everthing turn out. I have use the servos speed controlls on small PBRs. PTs and the Lindburge Tug. yes that works good . Nice to know I dont have all of the answers, Now you can help me on trying to help others, Now If I can help you just ask Thanks for the come back Don Macdonald The Portland Rustbucket ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Doug Wilde Subject: Re: Model shops and Museums around Washington DC Francis, The National Archives in College Park could keep you busy for a couple weeks. They are open late on Friday and most of Saturday. You likely won't be able to get a pull in for still photos. They have a huge collection and the Kodak scanner produces incredible copies. However, if you want to see plans, many are on microfilm and accessible ($.30 per page to photocopy). If movie film exists of your favorite ship or activity, bring some blank VCR cassettes. The very knowledgeable staff will help you locate appropriate footage. You load the beta in one of the viewing stations, load your own tape and make a copy (no charge) right then and there. Doug Wilde ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: PAUL TOSCANO Subject: Re: Aircraft Carriers I checked several Japanese web sites and these state that Hosho was the world's first carrier designed and built from the keel up. Here is one somewhat literal translation from one of the sites. Not as a conversion from any existing warship, Hosho was the world's first carrier designed and built from the keel up as a carrier. It was completed on December 27, 1922. Shortly after completion,in February, 1923 wonderful take off and landing tests were carried out in Tokyo Bay using Type 10 fighters flown by Commander Jordan, an Englishman. On March 16, the first take off and landing from a carrier by a Japanese was performed by Captain Kichiyoshi. I am not certain if Captain Kishiyoshi's name is spelled correctly. Paul ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: andrew jones Subject: to be judged or to be JUDGED I'm kinda new to the whole judging format here & have only been to a few outside APMA comps..but from what I have seen so far is that..is there a fair judging format anywhere? i like my models to be judged & if they end up being judged harshly cuz they are trash..sobeit (& i have a comp tomorrow!) (though i do feel bad if they dont get close to a score than what i was thinking) I have heard a few people comment that their model should have won or mine was better than 3rd place etc... its all up to the judges..some are rivet counters & others, just judge as per what they see without geting to nit picky. In defense of judges, one comment that was told to me is that if its for a major competition, of course the judges will have to be harsh, make the winner or the top 3 places really work hard for that spot ..& if its evaluation, they dont judge too harshly. Who knows maybe if there was different judges you could have won, but judging is difficult & many people dont like to judge kits because they hate to hear bad feed back if they harshly judge..but the main thing is to enjoy what you build & if it does not win, sobeit & if its remote control..take it to a specialised remore control club & see what their judges think I'm sure we at one time think judges are the worst people on earth, & im sure that the judges at the comp you attended held no grudges or bias (i dont have your comments anymore as to your kit) or even deliberatly passed over your kit for 1st place. So the main thing..if you dont win or get a good place..enjoy the hobby cuz as long as the kit looks good to you....though keep entering those kits in!! heck i still enter comps though my chances of winning big comps are slim to average so please dont let what happened to you, turn you off competing next time regards Andrew ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Peter Subject: Washington Naval Yard For the gentleman going to Washington DC, if it is open the Washington Naval Yard is a MUST visit place for you. Access to the public is unclear; see http://www.history.navy.mil/nhc8.htm and contact them in advance. The museum is excellent (details on the web site) with many fine models, and the decommissioned destroyer Barry (DD 933) is tied up behind the building. There is also a smaller USMC musuem on the grounds. NOTE! The Naval Yard is in a very bad, dangerous part of town. I would strongly recommend going only by taxi, in the day time, and not displaying cameras or other valuable things outside the Yard (inside is quite safe). Afterwards, wait for a taxi right at the gate, do not wander around. Finish your visit well before dark. There's not that many of us ship moderlers around anyway and we'd hate to lose one. Also in DC, be sure to see the naval aviation display at the Air and Space Museum. The museum shop has some naval air books for sale and a few ship models; a year or so ago when I was last there they had a built-up Tamiya 1/350 Enterprise on display. There is a small shop in the Crystal City Metro Mall near the Marriot Hotel that sells ships' ball caps. Read David Brinkley's book "Washington at War" for information on the history of some of the govt buildings in DC, Dept of the Navy, etc. I'm not sure if Pentagon tours are still offered post 9/11 but that might be interesting to you as well. I don't know of any retail model stores left in the area but others might have suggestions. Enjoy your trip. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Kelvin Mok Subject: RCing CVN carrier Enterprise >> rc/motorizing small stuff (1/350 etc.) is a very interesting way to have fun and run in small ponds and pools. << I had always wanted to sail my models and thought of this. Where can I get one of those external torpedo shaped underwater propulsion units? This self-contained battery-motor-propeller unit has its own rudder and is attached to the underside of the hull with a rubber sucker. I'd be happy enough to let it sail in large circles by itself. And when done put it back on the shelf as a static display model. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: John Kutina Subject: Okinawa Typhoons - Oct, 1945 I was on a steel hull PC at Okinawa at that time. We had recently arrived from Ulithhi as a convoy escort. We were happy to survive the war when the first typhoon hit Brucknner Bay in early October. All small ships were ordered to remain in Bruckner. We were anchored when about 2300 we were hit by a LCI[?] that had lost both anchors and had its rudders jammed. The high winds were driving it towards the beach. It had no control so it was circling towards us. It's bow hit us just aft of our peak water tank and crews" head. Fortunately we were caught in a wind pocket and were riding slack on our anchor chain and the chain was jammed in the forward damage but it did not break. We took on a lot of water but stopped the leak. The LCI[?] went aground on the beach. In the morning we realized how lucky we were. We torched the chain and were sent to one of the two major repair ships - either the Vulcan or the Zues. They welded a crude new bow on us and sent us back to our anchorage. A short time later we were ordered to sea as the second typhoon was on the way. We rode that one [Louise} out at sea with 120 [?] knot winds and 60 foot waves. All we could do is keep one Diesel in 1/3 forward into the wind with the second Diesel in idle. I did some throttle watches which were unique. As we crested then rode down the backside of these huge waves, our screws came out of the water and had to be disengaged or the vibration at any speed would have torn them off. I spent two days and two nights in the engine room. Fortunately I was only 19 so I was not smart enough to be petrified. When the typhoon was over we returned to Bruckner Bay. Miraculously the phony bow welds held throughout the entire siege. I was lucky enough to go ashore and the beach was littered with small and amphib ships on the rocks or grounded. Whatever figures were used in today's SMML letter on the ship casualties must have been right. The ironic part of this was that the war had just ended in August. From Japanese history they were saved from invasion several centuries ago by the same type of Typhoon. Had we not used the A-Bomb to end the war, perhaps our fleet would have been destroyed and Japan saved. J.R.Kutina USNR MoMM 3/c ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "M Brown" Subject: Re: Indian Ship's Colours Arjun, Thanks for the info, the Indian Navy used green decks in the 1990s. The photos I attached show some of them. Looks to me more like RMAS' Olive Green rather than the old RN deck green. The only comment from the Indian Navy has been that the ships are painted grey. What a security breech. Next they will tell us they float and carry weapons! Michael Brown ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: URUDOFSKY Subject: Re: Semaphores I can send you the pages from "Deck and Boat Book of the United States Navy", Navy Department, 1914. It describes the mounting, etc., and gives the codes for two-arm mechanical and manual signals etc. Actually, I can send you a CD of the entire book of 185 pages, if you wish. Send me your email address or snail mail address. Ulrich Rudofsky ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Pieter Cornelissen Subject: Re: first aircraft carrier The Hosho controversy leaves, as we say in the Netherlands, a strange taste in my mouth. As I understand Hosho's first carrier claim is disputed as a tanker hull was taken as the starting point for the design so she wouldn't have been the first 'true-form-the-keel-up carrier'. If you follow this line of reasoning Hermes is also out as the starting point for the design was a light cruiser and the design was in some ways a compromise between a light aircraft carrying cruiser an a seaplane carrier. Hermes could function as a seaplane carrier (she had the same type of crane/trolley system as Nairana) and did so occasionally. Both Hosho and Hermes were very interesting designs and featured original solutions to the problem of taking wheeled aircraft to sea. Both IJN and the RN had talented designers and there is much to admire both their designs. But somehow I think this is not the point. The IJN had the first 'real' aircaft carrier operational, and not the RN. Some people did not like this idea of the japanese being first and so the tanker controversy appeared. Cheers, Pietr Cornelissen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: NeustadtDonau Subject: Re: Enterprise at Greenville I saw this model at the Greenville, and I also saw the modeler. The model garnered a large share of the viewer accolades at the show and would have certainly won any popular vote at the show. From the perspective of a static ship modeler, the ship had several flaws. One: there were many glue spots. Two: the model was dusty and dirty, not weathered, dirty. Three: paint chipped off showing brass underneath. Four: there were tears in the safety netting surrounding the flight deck. Five: there were some alignment problems. While theoretically not a judgeable issue, the color blue was way too dark, nearly black, although it was loudly proclaimed to match the Snyder and Short samples. Most of the these errors would have eliminated the model from contention. The model was big and, undoubtly, represented considerable work and skill in it's construction. But as others here have said, it was the orange in the apple barrel. I overheard the modeler remark on several occassions before judging that he was going to blow the competition away, slamming the other competitors and belittling their work. So, he expected to win, and was irate when he didn't. I quote, "Those anal-rententive IPMS assholes don't know anything." He felt that because his model represented so many hours of work and that it was scratchbuilt, it's construction errors should be overlooked. I've seen the same attitude from others that enter very large models and arrive with the attitude that their model, because of it's size and the amount of work involved, should overwhelm the competition. It's a recipe for disappointment. This Enterprise was big, awesome model. It just wasn't built to be shown at an IMPS contest, but with only a little work, it could be. John Collins Franklin, Tennessee, USA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: AAA Hobby Supply Subject: Re: Aircraft Carriers >> Can anyone name the first American carrier designed from the very beginning to be an aircraft carrier? << I smell a trick Question. Ranger was indeed the first US CV built from the keel up as a carrier, but Freidman says her hull design was modified from an exisitng cruiser hull. I also think the Yorktowns, Wasp, Essexes and even the Midways would also fall under this trap (if it is a trap) as they used hull shapes, machinery and other major items designed for other ships. The first truely unique US Carrier I can think of that had a completely new design would have to be the Forrestal class. The hull shape was new (although it was built upon a modified Iowa/Midway hull plan) as was the power plant. Every carrier class since then has been an improvement. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: ConnellyTG Subject: SCHNELLBOOT IN ACTION Yes, it is true that SCHNELLBOOT IN ACTION will be out soon. In July. It'll have a few items of previously unpublished data and photos. Garth ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: WRPRESSINC Subject: Camouflage Vol !V Camouflage Vol !V in the Warship Perspectives series is now being shipped to dealers. Contact your favourite outlet for details. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the SMML site for the List Rules, Backissues, Member's models & reference pictures at: http://smmlonline.com Check out the APMA site for an index of ship articles in the Reference section at: http://apma.org.au/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume